Rosé + Thorns
Join Dr. P. Ryan and friends in unpacking the highs and lows of life, culture, and relationships—open conversations with no off-limits topics.
Rosé + Thorns
My Friend, Homer
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Life is changing fast—and our relationships are changing with it. How do we grow, love, and stay emotionally present in times like these?
On this episode of the Rosé + Thorns Podcast, Dr. P. Ryan sits down with his Brother and friend, Homer, for a raw conversation about romantic relationships, personal growth, and the role therapy plays in understanding ourselves and others. They explore:
🌍 Creating psychological safety in social and romantic spaces
🌍 How AI is reshaping skills and careers
🌍 Black joy and vulnerability
🌍 How emotions shape the way we love and connect
Homer opens up about his relationship journey—past, present, and future.
Don’t miss this deeply honest conversation about love, growth, and vulnerability.
Um, certain mistakes that I may have made in my past, trying to fix them in my dreams and seeing like the outcomes. I think that keeps me up sometimes.
SPEAKER_00Trying to fix them in your dreams and fix the outcomes. How can you do that? You can't.
SPEAKER_03But in your dreams, you think you can change it and things will get better. And then what I realize is when I wake up or and I have these nightmares or dreams, it's kind of just like, okay, what can I do in the present to fix whatever I felt in the past? Or have I done that already? If I've done it already, just check in and be like, okay, that was a nightmare. That was something in your past creeping in. That's not who you are presently. That's not who you actually were then. It was just maybe a circumstance.
SPEAKER_00Hey Love Bugs, and welcome to another episode of the Rose and Thorns Podcast. I am your host, Dr. P. Ryan, and I am here today with a seasoned tech, not unseasoned, right? A seasoned technology and management leader whose career has been defined by guiding organizations through complex transformations while keeping people at the center of every solution. Everyone, welcome. Homer Britain the Four.
unknownHi.
SPEAKER_03Hey Pat. I gotta stop you right there. I'm actually not the fourth.
SPEAKER_00What are you the first?
SPEAKER_03No, I'm the sixth. So actually, there were six of us total. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I didn't do my research.
SPEAKER_03Everybody gets those Roman rumors messed up that get them confused, but yeah, I'm the sixth.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so flip the eye around. Okay. You are the sixth. Yep, yep. Family, family name.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Roseanne Thorns podcast.
SPEAKER_03Thank you for having me. I'm looking forward to this. We've talked many times in the past. We've talked anywhere constantly.
SPEAKER_00Why am I not on the podcast? How's your heart?
SPEAKER_03Uh my heart is healing, man. I um I'm adjusting to my new normal, uh, the things in life, um, divorced, uh, but also just changing with jobs and just adjusting to that. And recently uh bought me another house for my birthday. The wealth. Teach us. But I I've always had a rental property and I lost that in that situation. But then I was like, you know what? Let me go back and take my time. And for the last three years, I've been working towards that goal and was able to achieve that at the end of last year.
SPEAKER_00You said adjusting to a new normal. Could I be a little nosy?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, you know, I mean, divorce is different. You know, I was um married for five years, six years, I think fully. But um it's an adjustment. You go from your 30s to your late 40s, and you're being single and getting back out there is it's different. So uh adjusting to how dating is done or was done, it just seemed like it skipped a beat. And so getting back out there, but also with my job adjusting, because uh where I was at, I was moving up pretty fast, high on the corporate ladder, and then basically got the ladder taken away from me and having to find a job when the economy was changing, you know, AI is coming in and things like that. But I found my landing, I got some good career coaching and made those adjustments, and so that's why I say adjusting to my new normal or or what I like to call it the new beginning. And so I've uh really appreciate the journey over the last three and a half, four years.
SPEAKER_00Come on, positive spin. And we're gonna get into all of that because uh you're dropping so many gems right now, and I'm I'm super curious, but let's start off with how we know each other. Okay, and I usually leave this to the guests to kind of start the trend of how we know each other, but if you'll allow me, I have a story for you. Okay, okay, once upon a time in 2022, okay, maybe 23, one of those, right? There was a young man who moved to Houston and didn't really know why he was in Houston except for like work. But he was just like, you know what? I've lived in XYZ city, I've lived in this city, I've lived in that city, and I've really made it like my space, right? And so I'm gonna come to Houston and be a big social butter butterfly. And that didn't happen. Right, right? Jitters came in, nerves came in. But he decided to use kind of the fraternal space as a way to kind of expand and get to know people, right? However, his history with the fraternal space was not the best. Okay, okay. So he was just like, Eff it, one day, uh cookout happened in the summer, and he's like, I'm gonna get some maker's mark and my little bag, and I'm gonna go to this thing, right? And he was just there, fly on the wall, trying to figure things out, nerves kicking his ass, right? And this person named Homer comes over and was just so welcoming, so invited, like kind of was a safety blanket in that moment. And of course, that person is me. Right. Why don't we give that away? And I don't think I've never shared this with you, right? So, like you don't know this, but you really restructured what my social life in Houston or my idea of what social life in Houston could be, my social life in Alpha could be, my like journey with brotherhood could be in this city. And so I just wanted to thank you for that. And that is how we met, right? Like, yeah, that is that was funny. Yeah, you were friendly AF, like just so warm and welcoming, and it just let me know that the things I experienced previously in this organization didn't necessarily have to be what I experienced moving forward.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah, and I think that happens when new brothers come to town, and I think your experiences from the past, age group and things, I just gave them a little bit older. Yeah, everybody.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I mean, well, let's speak experiences with we're with some old people now. Oh, yeah, but you know, that can be the worst sometimes.
SPEAKER_03But like just being friendly and that brotherhood space, everybody's welcome, no matter what your background is. And I think some people get caught up with that, and I don't really care about that. And so also you were welcome, and we got to talk, finding out, you know, you were you weren't local, and then also I'm not local, I'm not from Houston as well. And so I'm and I know that feeling when you're going into those environments of with uh older bros, alumni, brother, alumni chapters, everybody's kind of clicked up in a sense because they've known each other a while, and then there's the younger brothers you don't really fit in the young bros, and it's that middle group that's like uh in passing, yeah. So I feel you and I understand that too as well.
SPEAKER_00Now, what were some of the experiences that you've had just in your life that made you a facilitator of safe spaces, I guess you could say.
SPEAKER_03I I think that's funny because you you you say that and I'm like, am I?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I don't know. Do you think you're not?
SPEAKER_03I didn't think I was, and then I noticed over the probably I would say um six to eight years with therapy, I can understand the safe space and understanding and needing that. And before, if you knew me, you loved me. If you didn't, you probably thought I was an asshole or something like that in that area, and I didn't care. But now it's just like one, we're not in competition, no matter what. Why can't I be nice? Why can't I be welcoming? You're not going to harm me. And I think that has something to do. I'm originally from Chicago, always bring that up. You know, you have that environment of where things can get rough. I'm off from the south side. Yes, I moved away at a certain age, but you never lose that environment in your head. And so you're always watching your bag and stuff like that. And this is like, this is a chapter, this is alpha stuff. Like we're gonna be fine. So let me be welcoming tonight, everyone, because also I know how it is to be that person that nobody knows.
SPEAKER_00It's very interesting to hear you reference kind of where you're from as how like you the ways you show up kind of shape you, right? It does. I'm a Maryland girly, but there was a period prior to moving to Maryland where I was raised in Philly, right? And Philly is not an easy city. Right, right. Right. There are a lot of people who have been hurt who you know kind of move in a rough way, right? And so I'm just thinking how my experiences there could also have shaped, you know, my expectations for engaging with people.
SPEAKER_03It's always there. And we don't really think about it. And then at our age, we, you know, you're like, oh, I haven't been there in so long. It's like a lot of things happen at that time, and they stay rooted. Just like at the end of the day, I feel as a lot of us from 30 to 40 are healing a five-year-old little boy or girl. For sure. So five, six, seven, twelve. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're healing somebody that was, you know, uh at that young age. And I think that's a lot carried into adulthood, and people don't realize that.
SPEAKER_00What are the experiences in therapy that helped you kind of break down the walls of like we're not in competition? Like, what are some of the breakthroughs that happened there?
SPEAKER_03It just took time, you know, and I'll be honest with you, even my marriage being in competition with my ex-wife, you know, um you married someone, you're not in competition, but you still have this thing of where you're one upping each other and you're thinking it's a positive way, but then uh over time you realize that actually it puts you in a uh spot of where resentment may have not been discussed, but it built. And so I think that um therapy was a major portion of the breakthroughs and getting understanding. Uh, I played sports growing up, so I'm very competitive. You know, in the space, I can't say the firm that I originally worked for, you had to work really hard, you know, competition, and you know, we always got to work twice as hard. And so dealing with those things, uh, I had to make those adjustments and realizing that your personal life is not your professional life. And so that was a big breakthrough for me because I kind of mirrored those two. I was very successful here. I should be just as successful in my marriage or in my personal, per private life doing the same things and they don't add up. And I've said that before, but they really don't add up.
SPEAKER_00I am practicing such self-control right now because I want to jump to a certain part of this talk. Okay, there. I pray that I can remember this piece. Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. Speaking of work, right? And work transitions, your role is that you are or are a technology and management leader. Yep. I don't know what I mean.
SPEAKER_03So tell us what So to be precise, I'm a product manager and I work in product management, but my background goes from portfolio program, PMO, PMI. Uh, most people get that PMP certification, but I did all that. Then also I did some internal consulting where I got to work on uh working with like CIOs and doing internal consulting. Because at the end of the day, everybody goes out and thinks their customers are um Nike and State Farm and all these different outward-facing companies. But actually, you have your practitioners inside your firm that need technology to do the things that they're trying to do with these other companies. And that's where I come in and trying to uh connect the the business strategy with a technology strategy to make sure we work together. And so that's what I was doing, and I'm actually partially still doing that with product management, but now it's focused on a product instead of a uh overlapping landscape.
SPEAKER_00Now you mentioned at the beginning of this being impacted by AI. And you know, this AI wave, it feels like it just hit and has really shifted people's lives. You're saying that's not how it happened.
SPEAKER_03No, I think people were missing it. AI has been going on for the last 10 years, but they did it really small, and so you didn't realize what was happening. And then in the last, I would say three years, it sped up really fast because we're making advancements. And so now it's in front of you instead of being behind. It was behind the scenes for a while, and they've been working on it and improving it to make it work for the everyday person. And now it's working for the everyday person. So everybody's like, oh my God, it's coming, it's coming. It's been coming for actually probably 20 years. But I can know for myself, working on projects uh in my former company in Nashville 10 years ago, was doing AI in call centers in a call bot. And those those bots when you pop up on a text message or you're on a website and that's AI.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And you think you're talking to someone and you're texting, that's actually AI. That's oh that's been going on for a while.
SPEAKER_00So it's been here for a while and it's created a lot of advancements, right? So there are clearly a lot of benefits for it. But as you had mentioned, there are some drawbacks, right? Like it's impacted. No, no, it's a balance. Okay.
SPEAKER_03I think I think it's a balance because it depends on where you're at. I do see the because right now you have uh in tech companies, they're laying off record number of people, uh, probably the last two, three years for AI advancement. And um that's a downside. Some jobs are gonna get cut. Um, I think now if you can look at um, I think Waymo, the uh driving autobus, that's gonna take some jobs away. But I think there's an opportunity to learn AI, to use it for yourself. Like I use it daily in my job. I used to take probably two, three hours to do a document, it takes me 30 minutes. But I'm actually going back in that document, reviewing it, adding words that I say so it comes from me and making sure I think there's an opportunity for all people to learn. I think one of the things that happens with technology right now is that and actually it's always happened with technology, people get left behind because they choose not to learn it. I mean, this remember growing up, us typing. Are they even typing now? Or we can go back to cursive. Kids don't even learn cursive. Technology advanced. Now you're you know you're you're typing more and doing things and uh research. It's so funny to think about having to go look in a library to do your research, and now you can just click on a link or say, hey, I'm looking for this, send me topics. For sure. Uh but I I do think there's an opportunity. I do think that the bad side is there's gonna be some job loss here and there, and it's gonna seem like a lot, like it does right now, but there's an opportunity for people to improve learning with so much free uh classes on YouTube and so many opportunities to advance yourself, but you have to want to do it. And that's and I think that's the thing. Are you comfortable enough to be uncomfortable?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and not just want to do it, but like regulate the fear around doing it, right? So I think with AI, there's sure acknowledgement that there are a lot of advancements that come with this, but there's so much fear mongering around it. Yeah, and I think some of the things that we get fed is like it's replacing a lot of jobs, like people are which I'm sure is happening, right? But as I'm hearing you say, there are opportunities for collaboration with this tool.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, there there is, and I think the the fear mongering happens because you are people are gonna lose their jobs, but there's opportunities to pivot. And you have to, which in life we're all gonna have to pivot. But are you gonna pivot and complain or you know stay where you're at or are you gonna pivot in advance? Because there's a lot of jobs right now that are empty because people aren't learning the tools and whatnot. And it's not easy, don't get me wrong. Um, I think that would be kind of me being elitist thinking everybody could just jump in and do things, but I do think there's opportunity to learn it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And that's I think that's the benefit for people if they want to do try that.
SPEAKER_00Speaking of the pivot, which I'm really loving, in addition to maybe learning things on YouTube, are there other resources that people can kind of go after to kind of build that skill?
SPEAKER_03I mean, there's free Google courses. Um, you really again use internet and you can use Copilot. I think that's one or Chat GPT, and just hey, I I'm interested in dot dot dot. Can you send me resources? That's one way for you can learn. And I think it's a good opportunity to see how it works. Um, I understand some of the fear, I understand some of the environmental things that are going on, which are interesting. But my whole point is like, hey, do you recycle? And a lot of people are like, oh no, because I struggle with recycling. And then, you know, people are complaining about the water, and I get it. There are real problems and real issues going on, and we need to figure them out. But also while we're figuring these things out, make sure you're learning some of these uh tools because they can help you with your job, your business, or even give you the opportunity to start running your own business.
SPEAKER_00And what I hear you saying too, with the resources that you mentioned, is kind of like using the tool to learn the tool and to figure out how to learn the tool more, right? So it's like collaboration from step one, exposure from step one.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, because there's so many tools at this point now that like, you know, um coding is going to no code, and I'm not going to sit here and act like I know how to use every AI tool. But there's sometimes when you're free time, get bored and just give it a shot. Because at the end of the day, what can you mess up?
SPEAKER_00Speaking of pivoting, you're a person who I notice has their hands in different pots. So yeah, you're kind of experiencing this new normal in relationship, you're experiencing this new normal in professional life, but there are also bits of you that I've gotten to know, like as time has gone on, which is that you are a party boy. Yeah, party ish. Safe party spaces. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_03I agree. It's it's funny. My friends would be like, Oh, you outside. I'm like, I'm not. You stay outside. Like grandma in me is like, oh Lord. But I'm not. It's like once or twice a month you catch me outside. And then even then, when you catch me outside, there's a timeline. My friends will joke and laugh. And actually, it happened this weekend. Uh it was an event going on, and it was from three to seven. They were like, Homer, those are your hours. And I was like, You're right, I'll be there. Because when eight, nine o'clock come, I'm ready to go home.
SPEAKER_00So and what we're getting at for the listeners who don't know is that over the past year, right? And it could have been longer, but for as long as I've known, over the past year, you, especially in the summer, would host these party events or these bases to kind of get people out in the streets and to do the thing. Can you tell us more about that event curation movement that you started in the city?
SPEAKER_03It's the collective. Uh, it's a buddy of mine, fraternity brother of ours. Uh, we actually used to throw New Year's parties in Houston. We did a good three years strong, and uh an incident happened where I was like, yeah, you know what? I think I'm gonna take a retire from this. And um I'll ask you about it after that. Yeah, yeah, after that. Yeah, for sure. And um with my new normal, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna get back to being social again and enjoying myself. Uh, but I'm not gonna overdo it. So it's uh we have this happy hour. We basically uh sneaker happy hour because we're both sneaker heads, we love enjoy sneakers, and we do it bi-monthly. Um, and we just pick different restaurants or places in Houston and give it a shot for people to come out, enjoy, bring your friends, bring each other. And it's really it's a sad thing. We're working I'm working on it. You know, we don't have an Instagram page, there's nowhere you can go, but getting that so more people can know about it. But it's really just a good reason to get my friends together because everybody has kids, uh, listen to life in general. But if you know on the last Friday of every other month, this is an event that gives you an opportunity to get together. For sure. Get a babysitter and get out the house.
SPEAKER_00What have been some of the challenges and kind of benefits of this collective, this movement that you've created?
SPEAKER_03Uh, I think people think we're doing it for money. And I'm gonna be honest with everyone, I'm not making money off of it. Um, we'll throw in, we'll get food, or maybe a tap like at the swimming pool party. We paid uh for probably like the first two and a half hours of drinks. Luckily, people, black people don't show up to pool parties on time. So we we made it through. But um, I think the challenge is people think we're going for money. I do want to get to the point where it's actually raising money for different um organizations. And um actually I used to be a board member of a charter school, so it's another way of to give back to our community. I'm trying to build that up to that point, but uh finding venues that will bring enough bartenders because respectfully, when my friends come out and drink, they're gonna drink. And um we had an event uh in January and didn't have enough bartenders. Uh, but that's always a thing of going in spaces and they're like, oh, yeah, we've heard this before. You have 40 people, we'll have one bartender. And you've seen what happened before. And it was like, sure, wait, there's a lot of people here. And then next you know, they're scrambling to get bartenders. And so just trying to get the staff to understand what we're bringing, and then finding uh places in the city that stay because that food hall is gone. Um it is, yeah, like literally the month or two after it's find opening green clothes, right? Right. But those challenges is finding uh places that we can go and then people feel safe. And as you know, in Houston, parking is trash. Yeah, so getting places where parking is available and things like that, and finding places that will actually cater to us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What have been some of the benefits, the beauties of this?
SPEAKER_03Seeing people that you haven't seen in a while, you know. Um again, January, respectfully can't remember everybody I saw for my birthday, but uh seeing people that I haven't seen in a while and just having that connection with your friends because again, life happens. And we get really caught up in what we're doing in our life. And so I I think the benefit is seeing people I haven't seen for a while. Like one of my best friends who actually lives here uh in Houston, and she travels for on the holidays all the time back to Alabama. Kara, shout out to Kara. And so uh getting to see her, I get excited and seeing people that again I haven't seen in a while because everybody can't make them. But it's that's the whole thing is getting everybody together and smiling and having a good time. And it's not a um funeral, it's nothing bad happening because I think that's usually when black people come together. But having these uh moments, I really enjoy that. And it makes me smile. And actually, I start thinking about it again. I was talking to a buddy today, I was like, well, such and such of the party's like, yeah. And I was like, oh man, I had a good birthday. Because I don't remember her, but yeah. I love that. Caught that doom. Hey, it was my birthday time. Any other happy hours after that? I'm really calm, but my birthday, I enjoy myself.
SPEAKER_00I already labeled you as a person who facilitates safe space. But when I think about you in the context of the collective, I see you as a facilitator of black joy. And I have a little quote here from this article that comes from the Journal of Equity and Education and Society. Says this we seek black joy to remember our humanness and maintain connections. Our joy is maintained and sustained through songs of survival, creative outlets, and mind, body, and soul practices. And there is so much going on in the world. And so having kind of this space with you in the collective again just highlights for me a preservation and a maintenance of black joy. But as you have mentioned, we all got a lot going on, including you. And so I can imagine that it might be super hard to or difficult at times to sew into these spaces when we got our own shit in the background. What keeps you facilitating these spaces? What keeps you invested in this movement when you have stuff in the background going on?
SPEAKER_03I think remembering like being in those dark places before and um wanting to be around my friends, but wasn't vulnerable enough to do that at a certain point. And now I'm in a point in my life where I can be vulnerable and I feel comfortable in that. And so when people come out, you don't know if they're having a rough day. But a couple drinks later, they're telling you and you're there to be there with them. And in that space, it is a safe space. Like it's not a competition again, like I said earlier. We're just, it's our friend group. And yeah, you more people are welcome. Like when you came, I was like, bring your friends, come home. And I it's nothing like that. So in these spaces, when I when we do this, it's just a good reason to get out the house because I work from home. Uh I do go in the office more now, but it was a point in time where for six, seven years, I worked remote. Um and that's why you say a party boy. I'm actually like in between. I used to be very, very social. Then it went back to like, I don't want to go out. Then I got married and I was like, I'm going back in. And then I came back outside. You know, and so just finding those spaces and being comfortable with the people. Um I just remember that you never know what someone's going through. And so giving them a safe space, giving a reason to get out the house just every other month, you could be helping someone you don't know. Yeah. Because we all have our darknesses.
SPEAKER_00I really resonate with that, this idea of kind of using your experience and what you needed as a fuel or a motivator to kind of give people a space and hopefully meet some of their needs. Whole reason why we're here. So there have been times where, you know, I have just pondered different themes, I have pondered different topics, I had my perspective, but I wanted to hear from other people because, you know, there's even a scripture they overcame by the word of their testimony. The more testimonies we can get, the more we can normalize what we're going through and maybe have deeper breakthroughs.
SPEAKER_03I agree. Totally. I think that that's one of the big things that I know we're gonna get into that, but being able to go through my divorce uh was allowing me to speak more. I was speaking to my brothers and friends and having those conversations, and it was like, oh man, I never thought about that. Or having some of the conversations about relationships and being able to check them and say, hey, you out of bounds. And I think there's a this movement where a lot of women don't think men talk. We talk a lot more than you think, and we're actually on each other a lot more than you think. It's just not on social media, it's not on a lot of podcasts and these things, but it's happening more than you think. And a lot of people are taking accountability and they're taking it seriously. And so that goes to the joy, the having these things together, but just in our our neighborhood of male friends, it's happening way more than people think. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now I will say men are talking down to the podcast now. Okay. And that may be a part of the problem.
SPEAKER_03Some and you know, some are accurate, some of the, but that's another thing, too, that I learned through therapy and stuff. Your delivery matters so much. You know, you can be blunt and you still delivery can be way off, and nobody cares that you were telling how you feel. It's about delivery. And I think some of these podcasts probably could work on their delivery better. I'm not naming any, but everybody has their own opinion of what they're trying to say. But I I wish and hope that we stop this men versus woman, black woman, black man, black man gets black man. All I just wish we would just stop and look. We need each other.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03At the end of the day, no matter what your background or what you like, you need someone. That's okay. Especially today. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, you know what? Let's not hold the people up. Let's get into the real stuff. The juicy, the meat, right?
SPEAKER_03No. It's life.
SPEAKER_00In this season of the Roseanne Thorns podcast, you know, each season carries a certain theme. And this season's theme was initially men are unwell. For various reasons. The theme was. Okay. I'm glad that's not the theme. Right. But I decided to be less of a man hater. Okay. And I wanted to change the theme a little bit and just say men are healing. We're looking at this idea that there are certain things men are doing that work really well when it comes to interpersonal relationships, whether it be family relationships, friendships, romantic relationships, sexual relationships. But then there are also some areas of growth. As I had mentioned before, you know, the men are down to the podcast talking, but oftentimes they're not talking about the areas of growth. Right? They just have their hot takes and the conversation ends there. Yeah. And so I wanted to provide a space for folks to talk about the highs and lows of their relationship experiences. But before we get into that, right, I just love teasing people.
SPEAKER_04Okay.
SPEAKER_00We know that you're a mental health advocate. You've talked about therapy in our time together already. We also know that you recently celebrated a birthday. You already mentioned January. How old did we turn? 39. 39.
SPEAKER_03Last year in my 30s, man. Crazy. Crazy. Seems like yesterday. I was a young lad. So are. Someone's eye. Right, right, right, right. Right.
SPEAKER_00How would you describe your mental health journey, your healing journey over these 39 years?
SPEAKER_03So I'm going to give kudos to um Jason Wilson. He's an author. You've probably seen him on Instagram. But I call it the, it's from his book, but I'm adding to it. It's the journey to becoming the man the moment demands. One of the big things is I realize you can't be half a man. You know, a lot of things we've been taught. As long as I could provide financially and physically, I should be okay. There's a large space in the emotional awareness. And I have no problem saying I did not have the highest emotional awareness in my young 30s. But through therapy and breakthroughs and my ex-wife working through things, I realized that, you know, these were some areas that I needed to focus on. And if I want to have a long-lasting relationship, this is where I'm going to be able to lead from. Not leading from the materialistic things, but leading from my heart and what I have inside. And so my mental health journey, I would say, again, eight years, eight and a half years have been discovering that and becoming comfortable. I think most men think vulnerable, being vulnerable is a weakness. It's actually a strength. Learning how to communicate properly. That's been a journey. And just not being afraid to speak on your fears to your partner or even tell them your plans fully and knowing that accountability is going to come one way or another. And that's where I've been, and that's where I've, you know, find my niche now and doing mentorship and having conversations with other brothers and just realizing that, you know, divorce isn't a failure. Uh took me a while to get there.
SPEAKER_00Um sometimes it's a blessing.
SPEAKER_03Amen. Uh and that's no shade, but it's realizing where we were. Because again, trying to heal a little boy and a little girl together sometimes doesn't work.
SPEAKER_04For sure.
SPEAKER_03And so um just traveling through that and being okay with that at the end of the day, my marriage failed. That was a hard statement. Even saying it now is a hard statement to accept, but it's the truth, and it's okay. And I can move forward with that. So, and a lot of people don't want to do that. So that's stuff.
SPEAKER_00Not trying to therapise you, but again, just like recognizing that a relationship ending is sometimes not a failure. Mm-hmm. Just because words mean things. Just want to throw that out. Yeah, yeah, words matter. Also, I'm a little stuck at what you said earlier. Like this idea that you can't be half a man, and then what you said to follow up with that is you moved out of just this protector provider trope and decided to hold space for emotions and vulnerability. I had to learn. I had to learn. I had to learn. Yeah. What whereas so many folks, you know, on their healing journey, or maybe not on their healing journey, see the protector and provider as the end all be all. And there I'm 100%.
SPEAKER_03No. I I would say, and this is uh, I think interesting dynamic that we have gone into with women killing the game and the careers. Yeah, no problem. Black women are killing it. Um, they don't need men for money anymore. So what else can you offer? And is it that safe space? Is it when they have a long day, do you listen? Or as well I know we all do, do you try the solution first? Maybe work through. And I I know, and I still to this day, sometimes solution first. And then, you know, you're ignoring what got there. And so you have to have those conversations, and I can have those conversations like, okay, I why were you feeling this way? Then I get to the solution. Or if I do it vice versa, be like, hey, I want to acknowledge that you were upset or annoyed. So I don't want you to think I didn't hear that. And I was just trying to get right to the how we can solve this problem, but also I want to acknowledge your feelings because they matter. And I probably honestly, eight years ago, I couldn't do that. Yeah. I had to learn. I didn't understand that. You're really jacking me up a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Because you acknowledging that, you know, when you have kind of your own, right? Socioeconomically, what else can you offer? When I tell you that is a conversation that I have with so many of my homegirls and so many of like just my femme aligned friends or same gender loving friends, what have you. What else can you offer, right? And you talked about kind of this communication dynamic where one may a partner may share a problem. And the first thing you get to is okay, solutions in my own therapy journey, right? Yes, your paper clinician also has a therapist and also has therapy.
SPEAKER_03Ain't nothing wrong with that at all.
SPEAKER_00One of the concepts that I've unpacked or and have been unpacking and am continuing to unpack is this idea of kindness, right? Kindness towards self and kindness toward others. And one of the things me and my therapist sat in was that kindness doesn't fix it, it works to understand. And again, so many folks, and this is a conversation between men, right? So many of us place our manhood in being able to be the fixer, have the solutions.
SPEAKER_03That's what society has charged us to do for so long.
SPEAKER_00And in a way, what we're rooting our identity in is a lack of kindness.
SPEAKER_03That's normal. But it's not when you take the depths, when you look at your grandfather, your father's, you know, things like that, you never saw that the empathy and understanding and the softness. They do display it, but you're probably not around or you're not seeing it enough. Uh, but I think this generation of millennials are shifting. And, you know, women are calling out, hey, I got my own bag. What else can you do? I cook and clean too, but what are you doing on the emotional side? And I had to learn that. Like I felt like my ex-wife had a list of things, and I'll just say 10. I was doing eight of them really, really well. And let's say it took me time to get those eight. These other two, I was like, ah, you'll be okay with 80%. But those two were actually the emotional areas, and that was the most important. Yeah. And having to learn how to make those adjustments. And sometimes you make those adjustments and it's too late. Okay. That's not on you per se. You had to grow and learn, but it's something you have to accept.
SPEAKER_00For sure. Which is also why a lesson learned then is not necessarily a failure. Yeah, exactly. We're gonna dig deeper.
SPEAKER_03It's okay, man. That's what this podcast is for. So I don't want them thinking you're a man hater. So I mean maybe I am. And a man lover.
SPEAKER_00Now, you mentioned turning 39. I am approaching a milestone birthday this year. Okay. I'm turning 35. Hey guys.
SPEAKER_03To be young.
SPEAKER_00What would you tell your 35-year-old self looking back and having had this experience with relationships, life, lessons learned?
SPEAKER_03The emotional awareness and how important it is. Um I think I started learning that in the early 30s, but I really I struggle with it because I was more like, I'm doing this and that. And you know, sometimes you're not going to be propped up as you're growing, and that's okay. I think sometimes that little boy was looking for that, you're doing a great job, you're getting better. And sometimes you just have to get to the end, enjoy the process. Um and I would tell my 35-year-old self, it's okay to walk away. You'll find love again. That would be a big thing, is that you will find love again.
SPEAKER_00There's so much research out there. Um, off the top of my head, I'm just thinking We Real Cool by Bell Hooks. Um, I'm thinking The Velvet Rage. I'm thinking my own book, Internalized Home Negativity among St. Loving Black Men. Where this idea of black manhood comes up, and a lot of us are conditioned to experience kind of two emotions, right? Lust and rage.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You mentioned kind of going on this emotional journey and understanding your emotions more. What is an emotion that you've maybe not been conditioned to tap into readily, but that you're starting to build a relationship with?
SPEAKER_03I'm saying it's a lot of them, but yeah. You know what? Being okay with sitting in your sadness and being um okay with that. I think that has been a hard place. Even when my therapist will get to a point where I get sad and I immediately use my logic to get out of it. That has been a trigger, and I've actually now feel it because that yeah, one of the biggest things that I would say it's not emotion, but learning to be in tune with my body. I really was not in tune with my body, and I think the last two years I've actually like hit a different level. And so I know when I'm upset, but like this anger I feel actually, it's I'm sad. I feel uh embarrassed. Um, those things didn't know they existed because we were we're really gone to rage, and the rage has levels, and adjusting to that has been therapeutic, you know, and being okay with sitting in that sadness and it's not the end of the world, embracing it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you stole my hidden notes, right? Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Because we're definitely gonna get into kind of what you feel in your body at some point, but I'm so glad that you've been able to kind of tap into that awareness. There's this awesome clinician out there, her name is Tara Brock. Okay, and she wrote this book on radical acceptance. And she talks about how we, when things don't go our way, when we feel disappointment, when we feel whatever emotion that feels distressing, we get trapped in this trance of unworthiness that she calls it, right? And one of the ways to kind of navigate the trance a little bit better is to be a little more attuned to your body. That's tough.
SPEAKER_03It has been tough. Shout out to my therapist, Stephanie. Shout out Stephanie, y'all put the work. I put her to work. So um, she she's really, really good, and she'll catch me and like you're just trying to get out of it. And I'm like, Yeah, yeah, and what's wrong with that? And then she'll, you know, we battle a little bit, but it's it's getting better because I'm realizing that again, it goes back to some of the things you grow up around, not at home, just the environment you're always worried about being attacked. And so you feel like you got to get away from it instead of just sit with it and be okay. And I I've learned to be okay with that and actually being able to be, it's being vulnerable again.
SPEAKER_04For sure.
SPEAKER_03And um, Stephanie provides that safe space. And um, I'm appreciative of that. And it's taken me a while. Even my former therapist, Henry, Henry Pittman, I thank him as well. I always thank my therapist when I get on these. But it took a while, man. I was a uh slow learner on the emotional awareness train.
SPEAKER_00And I mean, we all have journeys when it comes to emotions, different emotions. Like an emotion that I'm working on building a relationship with, or I'm continuously building a relationship with, is disgust. Oh, really?
SPEAKER_03We're gonna talk about that more. Okay, disgust. Okay, wow.
SPEAKER_00And it's an emotion that I think is all emotions are tools, and I think it's an emotion that can be used as a tool to help you get out of people pleasing spaces or good behaviors, help you get out of things that don't feel good. Yeah. And so, shout out disgust. You're that girl. Okay.
SPEAKER_03That was the one I did not expect that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Now I think we're finally getting to the place that we've been inching toward throughout this talk. This divorce, this new normal. You've mentioned many things that your marriage has taught you, right? But earlier in this conversation, you talked about this idea of being in competition with your partner. And when I told you I wanted to stop the whole interview and just sit right there, yeah. What do you mean by that? What was that dynamic like? Let's start there.
SPEAKER_03I don't even think it was a dynamic that was right in front of you. You know how you have the layers. Uh, we're both popular people in the social life area and things like that. Outside. Yeah. Uh and I withdrew from that. But um I just think it was in a spot where that pedestal, where you put a person on a pedestal, you kind of leave yourself open to some heartbreak. And instead of reaching out and saying, Hey, I feel this way, it was like, damn, you doing this again.
SPEAKER_00You're not gonna go anywhere that that way. Um I hearing you say you idealized your partner.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think at the end of the day, I did. Okay. I put him on a pedestal. Um, you know, even to the point where now when I work through therapy, it's just like, okay, that that was wrong. You know, um, it actually probably was a benefit where I became needy emotionally to her. And that was some weight that she had to carry. She's got to worry about her own emotions and then got to worry about mine and balancing those. And so I think that through therapy and adjusting and looking back, I was able to fix it. But it was really hard to while therapy while trying to fix my marriage, trying to focus on both. I couldn't do that. Um, and so I pivoted to focusing on just trying to fix something that was unfixable. Uh, because you can't fix a marriage by yourself.
SPEAKER_00What are the things or the factors that you think put you in a position to idealize your partner?
SPEAKER_03Um here we go. Not loving myself. Um, I can be honest, I didn't understand outside of, and this would when I went through my divorce backtrack, I lost my job as well. And so I had to find my whole identity all over again. And so, and I realized that I didn't truly love Homer inside. And going through that allowed me, didn't realize it, to put her on the pedestal that she was on. Don't saying a woman doesn't deserve to be on a pedestal, but it's somewhere where it's not like you're so much better than me. And so when things go wrong and you tell me I'm wrong, well, I'm a we're gonna argue about it. But also, I'm gonna take your word that I messed up when it actually was a balance of us. Uh, but a lot of things happen that way. And so, really just getting to that point of where I didn't love myself and didn't understand it truly. Yeah, I loved my job, I loved being the husband, but did I love being with myself by myself and didn't even understand that at that time and realizing actually I really did, but I lost myself through this process of being married, and that's not anybody's fault but my own.
SPEAKER_00Would you say that your partner, because of this idealization, kind of served as like an ego boost for you?
SPEAKER_03No, but yes. I mean, Mike's wife was attractive, so that helps. But you know, I don't think it was that type of ego boost because I always felt like I would not have a fine woman as my wife. But um, that wasn't the drive there. But I maybe back of a line somewhere, like I would make sure she's pretty, but I think that's everybody. Um, but it was an eye-opening experience. I enjoyed some of the time, because I'm not gonna act like it was all bad and things like that, but the ending was not what I would have predicted.
SPEAKER_00So the reason I ask is because there is this again conversation that I have with peers and friends where sometimes we hold that it feels like men don't want partners, but they want kind of like placeholders of certain roles.
SPEAKER_03That went right in my head, yes, because we have been set up with this plan of how our life is supposed to go insert beautiful women. That's really it. But what we find out through experimenting or in the relationships, that's not all it's gonna do because because can a beautiful woman hold you in the middle of the night? Or is she gonna be out? Or is she going to be like, oh, I'd rather do this? There's a lot of things that we don't think about, or I didn't. I'll speak for myself. I didn't think about the emotional side and what I needed emotionally because I wasn't in touch with that side. I didn't think that the emotional neediness that I had actually mattered. Happy wife, happy life. That's not really how it goes, but that is what you hear so much. But I do think that a lot of men, including myself, at a certain time, you would think that I've got here, I got this job, I'm doing this. We get along, we connect here, beautiful insert. My plans still continue, but I did not think to ask, what are your you we have the conversation of what are your plans, but are we truly listening? Are we trying to mesh our plans together? Are we trying to make sure that are we close to your family, my family? Those things usually come in later in life if you're still together. But are we talking about those in front and connecting? And then I'm not gonna say that's everybody's experience or, but I see that being the majority of where couples disconnect because we just think of insert beautiful woman.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And in that insert, right? Like in that placeholder, you don't recognize that you're dealing with a human.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. Like yes. We miss out on the person's humanity and the fact that they're also coming with needs and um emotions, right? And and thoughts and things that they're experiencing.
SPEAKER_03And I was like, yeah, no, because you break it down. Yeah, because you don't, you don't, I say I think you can't think about what you don't connect with. So if I'm not connected to my emotional side and my emotional in my own humanity, because that's something, Stephanie, we talked about is I had the superhero complex. And I'm in, I know I'm not invincible, but you still have this. I'm a man, I'm this, that, that, I got muscles, bruh. I provide protect. There's so much more in this world. And they're not saying they're not men that are doing it, but that seems to be a complaint from women right now. And it's I think it's changing, but it's gonna take some time, and um it's a part of growth that people don't like to talk about.
SPEAKER_00And it's a weird issue because I think, yeah, emotions are a part of it, but there's also this conditioning of masculinity that's a part of it, and not to say that masculinity is bad, like as humans, we all hold the masculine and feminine to certain extents, right? But there is a hegemonic masculinity that is uh cultivated in our culture, right? Right that is rooted in like dominating, that's rooted in not seeing people as human, right? In order to justify how we show up in relationships. And yeah, I think that can also just impact what we see play out, what we see uh women and femmes and others describe.
SPEAKER_03And I think it goes back to we're not thinking that deep. We haven't been taught to deep think that deep. It's always been, you know, the music kind of sets up, sets us up for failure, you know. But having those conversations with your peers and opening your eyes to people that have been married for 30 plus years and having those conversations, I think that sets you up for success in certain areas. And sometimes you find out, well, this is not what I want. And you know, that's why I feel like my divorce wasn't a failure, finding out this is not something I wanted, you know, and vice versa. I wish her the best and going forward with her life as well, but I can't worry about that anymore. And I think that's you know, a lot of times men, we we're so focused on this, we're not thinking outwards. And I think that's where that dynamic happens with women, they want to be careful, they want to be heard, and they should be. And the desire shouldn't just be like, oh, I'm listening this time. It's every time because everybody's opinion in relationship matters. And it took me time to realize that as well. So like one of the things with we'll get to the dating and stuff, but like if I make plans, why are you asking so many questions? But they got to understand what's going on. And well, let's get there. Let's get there, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because yes, I'm a clinical psychologist, a sex therapist, the doll, right? But you didn't know this. I'm also an investigative journalist. Oh, really? Yeah. Just like Portrait Williams from Powell Song. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. And in my investigative journalism, I saw that you have done various podcasts, right? And in a recent podcast that you did, you mentioned something like this, close to your like Superman persona, right? Like, if I set the plans, why ask questions, or if I show up for you in XYZ sort of way, right? This is something that you've been kind of working through. If I show up for you in a certain way, why aren't you going along with the plan? Right. And it would cause like deep disappointment. You mentioned being attuned to your body. In those moments when the disappointment came up, what did you feel in your body? And also, like, how did you interpret those moments? Like, like I have a plan set. Why are you questioning? Or I've laid out this situation for you, right? Like to meet this idealized version of you, right? Not just with your partner. Why aren't you going along with the flow? Like, what comes up for you?
SPEAKER_03Uh, there's almost like anxiety, and the anxiety relates to like not being good enough. Um, and I realized work through that therapy, that's not it. But that's what initially came through, and it was just more about setting a plan, making things perfect, because I always want this to be in this order. Order doesn't matter sometimes, and being flexible, and that's one thing that I learned over my my marriage is being flexible. You know, you got time. I need to be here at this time, and it'd be 45 hour minutes later, but does it change anything? Did you have a good time? Or were you stuck on that that person was late? You weren't present anymore. And so, you know, going through those emotions and realizing what's worth it and what's not. That was interesting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, what's worth it and what's not. And also, what I'm hearing you go through a process of is seeing the other person.
SPEAKER_03Took a while to get there, but yeah, seeing outside oneself. Yep. Because there's two people in the situation, man, and you never know what's going on in someone's life. And you know, you can joke, and I'm a big jokester, jokester, uh, but you can joke about things, but really are you seeing that person? And that's been one of the biggest things that I think I've learned an ability with the connecting with my emotions, and I can now see women. And I, you know, not bashing, but I can realize there's some gaps in your journey of mental healthness and stuff like that. And it's interesting how like they collide in dating and stuff now. And so I I think it's just being human.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And what was coming up for me as you're talking about all of this is that as we begin to see folks, it kind of reduces the likelihood of idealizing them and allows us to hold space for not only compassion, right, but like more generous interpretations of their behavior, their reactions, understanding that there may be right some gap or some unwellness in the space. And it's okay too. Right. And and it allows you to figure out what to do with all that.
SPEAKER_03Is this a me problem or is it a you problem? Or an us problem. Or us problem. Exactly. Yep. Yep, you've got to figure it out. And then then that teaches you how to approach it instead of approaching everything as I did something wrong. I think that was one of, I know that was one of my faults. If something didn't go right, oh, what did I do wrong? Instead of just being, hey, how could I improve? What what where was the disconnect?
SPEAKER_00Now, with every chapter that closes, right, as long as we're alive, there's a new chapter that opens.
SPEAKER_03Love the new chapter.
SPEAKER_00Tell us about it.
SPEAKER_03Well, it depends on what you're asking, though.
SPEAKER_00So what do you love about the new chapter?
SPEAKER_03Myself. I'm actually not in love with myself, but I love who I am. And, you know, my spirit and the way I move and a lot of things that happened through the last three and a half, four years were people speaking out on my character to me and saying, you know, I saw how you carried yourself through that situation. I'm proud of you. Or, you know, you've provided a safe space and this and the other. Or I really appreciate you being there for me while you're going through what you're going through. And realizing that I do have it's not a superhero complex or superhero thing, but I have the ability to carry my own weight and others and be there for people. Um and being known for that instead of just like, oh, it's what I can provide. I actually can provide that emotional space and safety. That's important.
unknownA good man.
SPEAKER_00A good man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I'm getting there. I'm still learning.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Now you mentioned that the dating landscape, though, is it's tough. It's tough. What have been some challenges that you've experienced in this new chapter?
SPEAKER_03I think not, I don't want a women bash. But we have this dynamic where men need help. Men are unwell. Yeah. There's a lot of women that are unwell. People are unwell. And that's what I was about to get to. And that's what I was about to get to. It was like, it's actually just people in general. And so when I joke with my therapist and I told her on time after multiple dates and stuff, I was like, you know what? I probably shouldn't have done this type of therapy because now things that you would get look past, you're paying a lot of attention to. And you find yourself being like, you know what? This isn't for me. But, you know, two years ago, if I was single, this would have been perfect. You know, I'd have been all da-da-da. But it's it's not working. And so I think at the end of the day, realizing that, you know, everybody has the ability to change their mind, but it's how they change their mind as well. It's like if I'm up front with you, this is my situation, this is where we're at, and you're okay with it. And then a couple weeks later, you change the situation without communicating, then we have some issues. And are we going to talk about them? And then a lot of times I find accountability and women lacking sometimes in my dating experience, my previous dating experience. Uh, but I don't really worry about dating anymore. So I'm happy with what I found. So I'm out the game, coach. So I'm learning and developing a relationship with someone that I think is very special. And I'm happy because I'm not half a man anymore. I'm that full man that I believe that I can be. And so just really it took a while to get there, but you know, I still have work on myself too. And I would always tell anybody that's been divorced, don't rush it. It'll come. Uh, be careful when you're having fun. Uh, but rest your heart and rest your mind because it is something that is going to shock you in certain scenarios, but also surprise you in a good way. And you never know who you're gonna come across.
SPEAKER_00So that's beautiful. Now, to wrap things up, kind of, I do have to ask you this question. You mentioned the type of partner you were, you've mentioned who you were, you know, when you were younger, how you might have shown up in the dating space, how you're I guess not showing up now because you don't need that in this phase. What is the type of partner you are trying to be, you're actively working to be?
SPEAKER_03Just genuinely, genuinely someone that they can come to and know that it's not always gonna be a solution. Because I know I'm a man, it's always gonna be a solution, but that's gonna be the back end, but just someone that they can feel safe around. And it's not just from a physical standpoint. I got the muscles for that, but that who cares? Do you feel safe when you go to bed? Are you um when you get that promotion or job interview, someone you want to talk to? Is it me? Providing the mental capacity for space to have in that area. I think that's really important. I learned that, and I think that's the journey and the key, one of the keys to a healthy marriage or a healthy relationship is providing that space for each other. But for myself, yes, your question is just like doing that for me.
SPEAKER_00Who can I run to you can go to Homer? Well, not anymore. Don't get me in trouble. Thank you so much for this conversation. I enjoyed it. It's touch me.
SPEAKER_03No, I appreciate it, and I really appreciate the opportunity, but I thought I was gonna get to ask you a question.
SPEAKER_00Oh, hold on, wait, I was building up to we have gotten to the part of the episode called Let's Spin the Rose Bottle. Okay. All right, but I have spent the entire episode asking you question after question after question, and so I give my guests an opportunity to ask me one thing, and I have to give an answer. It may not be an answer you're pleased with, but it's an answer nevertheless. All right. What is your question?
SPEAKER_03My question to you is a question that you asked me to begin with. How is your heart, Patrick?
SPEAKER_00Grounded? Grounded. I'm taking things a moment at a time. Okay. Um not to give the people too much, but I just came off a season of fasting and prayer. Okay, church mother. Okay, um, so I feel incredibly grounded. I feel eager. My heart is eager for some things to happen. Um, but I think the main thing is grounded. Okay. That was easy.
SPEAKER_03Uh-oh. I'm me, so you know, I'm getting more than one question. I was gonna ask, what is the big personal goal you have for yourself in this year? Not work. Personal.
SPEAKER_00When I'll share with the class. Okay. I want to maintain my health.
unknownOkay. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You want to get you in the gym? Oh, I stay in the gym. Okay. I live in the gym.
SPEAKER_00Okay, okay. At the top of this year, I completed, I think, my tenth half marathon. Okay. I did the hot chocolate run. Okay. I'm gearing up to do the rodeo run. Okay. Um, and I just really love how I feel on the inside right now. That's good. Um, and so I just want to maintain that. Okay. I go through seasons of you know not engaging in certain substances in one of those seasons. So as I incorporate the drink back into my life, I still just want to maintain health is uh wealth.
SPEAKER_03Yes, it is. I agree with that. Yeah, it's good.
SPEAKER_00Well, thank you again for coming onto the show. Where can the people find you if you want to be found? Through you. That's your only part. I know.
SPEAKER_03You know, I'm a private person, but yeah, I don't, and it's funny, it's not even a joke. I don't even know my Instagram tag. Perfect. So they don't need to know. All right. There you go.
SPEAKER_00Again, thank you, thank you, thank you for being on the show. It really blessed me. And I hope it blessed our listeners. Thank you all. Love books, that's a wrap. See you next time. Bye.