Rosé + Thorns
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Rosé + Thorns
Unpacking Imposter Syndrome
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Do you experience doubt and hesitation about owning your accomplishments? Do you ever sense that one day you’ll be exposed as not deserving all you’ve achieved? Well, this Rosé + Thorns conversation is for you!
Using personal experiences to ground this week’s topic, Drs. Shun and P. Ryan dive into imposter syndrome and explore the ways this phenomenon can impact Black professional life. They also use their unique narratives to highlight various factors that can facilitate and protect one from experiencing imposter syndrome. 💛
Thank you for giving this episode a listen. Feel free to join the conversation and share your own experiences with imposter syndrome.
Looking for recommendations on how to manage imposter syndrome? Check out this article from the American Psychological Association.
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You can also follow and connect with Dr. P. Ryan on Instagram.
I am Dr. Sean Huddleston.
SPEAKER_00And I am Dr. P. Ryan.
SPEAKER_01Mother.
SPEAKER_00Storyteller.
SPEAKER_01Wonderlust.
SPEAKER_00Friend.
SPEAKER_01Workout Barbie.
SPEAKER_00All around good time. And we are the Rose and Thorns Podcast. Hey Love Bugs, and welcome to another episode of the Rose and Thorns Podcast. I am Dr. P. Ryan.
SPEAKER_01And I am Dr. Sean.
SPEAKER_00And we are so glad to be in the service one more time. We are here. Wanna do it? We could have been somewhere else. I know, but we are here. But we are here happy to be here. Today. Yes, yes, yes. How are you?
SPEAKER_02You know what? I am doing really, really well. I took a solo trip. Okay. Solo solo Scottsdale. That's one of my favorite places to go. So shoot. Shoot. Stella got a groove back. But I went um out there. I went hiking. Just some good meat time. I love Arizona. You know what I loved about it too? So it had like, you know, like a regular shower, had a gigantic uh bathtub, but then outside it also had a shower. So just taking showers outside was just like I love that you would think. In the nature.
SPEAKER_00How outside showers were definitely made for an extra person.
SPEAKER_02Well, not on this trip. She's all shoot. No, even met some great people at the resort, hung out with them. Shout out to Charles. Um, good good person, good person. Barkley? No. Oh no, not no Barclay. He was just there too at the resort. And uh we hung out at the we just had a good time. We just a good person, just met a good friend, you know. So that was really nice. But you know, ate some really good food, hiked. You have to hike super early in the morning or yeah, pass out. You will pass out, you will not be with us anymore. You have to plan very strategically um against that heat. I think at one point it was like 1.17 out there. I believe it. So it was really hot. So, but anyway, but it was really good. So I had a great time, just lots of reflection, journaling, got caught up on work, which I rarely have time just to sit with and just do. So I had a fun time and came back refreshed and ready to get back here with you.
SPEAKER_00Sounds like you had your exhale.
unknownI did.
SPEAKER_00No, that's right, Bernadine. Bernadine. I'll be Savannah. I want to be Savannah. He's a good man. He's a good man, Savannah. So yeah, it was good. What you been up to? Well, I've been working. Working? Working all playing. Oh, working no play. Working for the man every night indeed. Oh. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02What about play? Where's the play?
SPEAKER_00Where indeed? We'll talk about it in a future episode.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, but in working, I went to a couple conferences. One of them was actually the ASEC conference. Are you calling the ASEC?
SPEAKER_02I am, but I think you should tell the people what it is.
SPEAKER_00ASEC is the American Association for Sex Educators, Counselors, and Therapists. Love that. Right. Yes, yes, yes, yes. The people may not know, but the doll is a budding sex therapist.
SPEAKER_02And you are. When will you be like have all that completed? I'll announce it. Yeah, we need an announcement because I feel like the people will be coming to you.
SPEAKER_00They already are.
SPEAKER_02That's a real problem in relationships. So things that people need to talk more about. It's like their sexuality or just sex in general and what that is.
SPEAKER_00I'm your guy. Wrote a whole book.
SPEAKER_02Right. You did write a book. Tell the people about your book. Just real quick, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's an expansion for my dissertation, internalized homonegativity among same gender-loving black men. But that's related to my Asex trip.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? Yes. So I went to ASEC. It's a conference. So of course there are like presenters.
SPEAKER_01Right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00Um, there was a presenter there, Dr. Bill Johnson, black man, who was talking about black men's sexuality.
SPEAKER_01Wow. Okay.
SPEAKER_00And so he was talking about how, you know, as clinicians, we need to really be attuned to uh black male experiences and really take efforts to understand those experiences better. And he referenced various um pieces of research.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Not surprising, one of those pieces of research was Dr. Shemika Thorpe, who is this leader in black women's sexuality, black sexuality. She is chef's kiss. Chef's kiss. Um and so he's going on through that presentation. And you're there just listening and I'm taking it all in. And he starts to mention and reference research on anal play, pleasure, okay, and how that does not have to be painful and things like that, right? And how, you know, different scholars are talking about black male sexuality and are moving from like a trauma lens to a pleasure lens.
SPEAKER_01Sure.
SPEAKER_00And as he is referencing information from 2020, 2019, I said, wait a minute. That's Martian.
unknownLook at that.
SPEAKER_00He referenced my article. How did that feel on Ann Blue? Oh, I was shaking. I almost started crying.
SPEAKER_01Oh my goodness. Right.
SPEAKER_00He referenced my research on kind of just like exploring sex clubs and things like that. And it was, it was so wild. I was shook, right? Right. Because I wrote these articles. They can be found out here in the ether. And I was just like, you know, whoever picks them up is gonna pick them up. Yeah, I'm not expecting people to like really be into it. It is what it is. And then here's this man literally raving about my work, quoting, quoting my work in the same presentation as someone as a heavy hitter, like Dr. Shemika Thorpe, right?
SPEAKER_02So you see these people like proximal in terms of like their career trajectory and how versed they are in the field to be able to acknowledge your work as well in that same space, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, but then it made me think that's a huge impact. That's huge. The doll is out here. You better.
SPEAKER_01Just a little.
SPEAKER_00But it made me think too, like it made me question and confront in that moment. Why did you expect your work to just be put out in the ether and touched by anybody or touched by the very that's an excellent question?
SPEAKER_02Like, why didn't you think people would see it as sufficient and equitable?
SPEAKER_00And not even that they wouldn't see it as sufficient, but it's just like, why don't why didn't you think the stuff you put out would be picked up by by many?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, same thing, more or less. Yeah, more or less.
SPEAKER_02That's the same thing. Like, why would you like when it is?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but why? I don't know, but it had me reflect on a moment where somebody read me back in the day.
SPEAKER_02Say more.
SPEAKER_00Well, we talked about in an earlier episode the things you have to do to become a psychologist, right? And you need an internship from what? An accredited institution. APA accredited institution. Yes, you do, specifically. And while I was on my internship journey, you know, you don't just go pick up an internship off a tree.
SPEAKER_02No, and where were you again?
SPEAKER_00I did my internship in Atlanta.
SPEAKER_02Okay, right? Atlanta BA now. Yeah, I thought so.
SPEAKER_00Okay. But on the journey to matching with Atlanta, I had interviewed at a few places. Sure, absolutely. That's part of the process. And one of those places was Howard University. Okay. Right, which I absolutely loved, actually. Absolutely. They were in my top ranking. Sure. But when I was interviewing at Howard, right, the one of the doctors, one of the psychologists interviewing me, he was actually Fratt, so shout out to Fratt for holding me accountable. He stopped the interview while we I was answering questions, sweating up a storm. Right. And he was just like, You are really skilled. You're really qualified, but I'm picking up that you don't believe you are.
SPEAKER_01That's a word.
SPEAKER_00I'm picking up on imposter syndrome.
SPEAKER_01That's a word.
SPEAKER_00And you kind of gagged me in the interview. I was just like, uh, what? Right? And so then with this experience, years later, I'm well into my career. Well, I'm early career, but well into the career.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00Here comes this piece again. Here comes me questioning why did you not think your work would get picked up? Why did you not think your work would be acknowledged as powerful as it is?
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00Imposter syndrome.
SPEAKER_02Right, right. So that the work that you've done that's like really feeding into the literature base, really feeding into how we inform and talk about these different dynamics and phenomena. And I was wondering You are a part of that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I was wondering if we could talk about imposter syndrome today because I I think it follows so many of us.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I think we yes, absolutely. I think a lot of people experience that. I think though, and to your point though, I don't I don't I don't think that it's really well understood. And I think, you know, particularly just understanding what it is is one of the first steps, right?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02I think most people think that imposter syndrome is a clinical diagnosis, but it is not. Yeah, it is not in the DSM 5 TR now, right? Yeah. Which is the teal book.
SPEAKER_00Not the purple one.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_02Oh, the colors, they do change the color.
SPEAKER_00It's beautiful.
SPEAKER_02Change the colors cut out there. Every time like a new version, right? They change the color. I love it. Uh, but it's not within the manual that we use to diagnose individuals in our work. So it was actually developed by Dr. Pauline Rose Clantz. She coined this great term, right? And it is a phenomenon experienced by many, as we just talked about, and remembering that can all help us normalize like what that has looked like in our lives and hopefully make sense out of it. So that's what our plan is today, right? You want to say more?
SPEAKER_00It involves perfectionism, it does, it involves a disbelief that the work you put out there is valid, is impactful, right? Shout out to the story that introduced this whole thing.
SPEAKER_02Right. It can cause burnout. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And the burnout comes from just the pressure of to continue to achieve, right? And to continue in the space and within that pace that you're not good enough, right? And so you're an imposter and you're doing things to keep, you know, to keep going.
SPEAKER_00And excuse my like mini language, right? But it's such a mind F. Oh, it is. It is. Right. Because think of it, you're working super hard to keep achieving, achieving, achieving while not believing that your achievements are valid. Right? While while carrying this belief that in some way you're gonna be found out for not being that girl. That's so excuse this term, but crazy making.
SPEAKER_02It is. It can be crazy work. Yeah. Yeah. Like just all in your mind of you sort of having this belief about yourself as you navigate the different systems and spaces that you've truly worked hard for.
SPEAKER_00And I think as you know, we are sitting here, black folks, black folks. There is so much research out there that highlights that as black folks, this phenomenon is so common. It really is. Especially in spaces like academia, right? That's the space that we're kind of talking about. Because we are expected to juggle so many things at once. Right? We're supposed to perform well in this academic space. We're supposed to face racial discrimination. Because of the positions we hold, they're often really isolating. So we gotta navigate that isolation. Then let's talk about these systems are effing racists, right? No, that's right. And so we have to navigate oppression, marginalization.
SPEAKER_02Yep, yep, discrimination, different type of prejudices, yeah, depending on you know where you are.
SPEAKER_00Um, and when I think of that, you're fine, it makes me think not just of academia, but it makes me think of intersecting identities.
SPEAKER_02Right. And how yes, as black folks, maybe we should talk about what that is, like intersecting identities. Oh, yes. Just a little bit like for example, so me being, you know, black and a woman. Yes. That that's in those are intersecting identities, right? And so what would you say yours are? Me being black, gay, yeah, right, a little unwell.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Like I got three of them for you, right?
SPEAKER_02Right. So navigating all these contending spaces, all these identities, right?
SPEAKER_00All these identities. Dr. Kimberly Crenshaw highlights that these different identities make the oppression navigation process that much more difficult. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And up against and within spaces where we don't supposed to be successful in the first place. So it becomes a very contentious and tedious process to make sense out of and still show up in ways that you need to.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it also makes me question, you know, where does our imposter syndrome, imposter phenomenon story start? Right? Because we can easily say, oh yeah, it's academia, all right? It's it's the ivory tower, like it's and it it does have an impactful. Yeah, I think it's perpetuated in those. Yeah, absolutely. But I think for me, I don't think it starts there. I think it had some heavy blows there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, I think you take some hits, right? Like, you know, some some hard ones, but I definitely don't think it starts there.
SPEAKER_00I think growing up, you know, I grew up in very religious spaces, right? It still exists in those spaces, but even being a young child, right? People snuff the gay out of you before you even know. Right, before you know it's just like, wow, like let's all relax.
SPEAKER_02They start calling out, right? They have their suspicions, especially sometimes, you know, within those religious spaces as you just talked about, or just, you know, sometimes, you know, bla black family dynamics, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so, like, there's that identity piece, but there, you know, I'm I'm a thick girly, right? I've always been so.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So there was even ridicule around size. And so and also I would say going to church was one thing, but like I also went to school with the people I went to church with. Right. And so it's just like you never really I never really got a break from that reason.
SPEAKER_02You never got away from that.
SPEAKER_00Except from when I went home, right? And so I think that might have been the origin story, yeah, right? Like I need to work hard to prove myself in these other spaces who may not be in valid because of these identities that people are not accepting or they're classifying as like not good enough. Right, right. And so, in a way, it's kind of like this conditioning where you go through life with these pieces of you that are not fully acceptable, but then you sing good, you speak good, right? Speak well, speak well. I was about to say you better. Okay. You sing well, you speak well, you you do well on the test. Right. You move through life, right, right. But there are always these external voices saying, not good enough. And sometimes those get internalized to then kind of fuel the flames of this imposter phenomenon.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I agree with that. Um very much so. I mean, me being from Mississippi, um, and thinking about where that evolved for me. Like I think about, so I have a family where we like make fun of each other. Like it but like, but in a in a good-hearted way, but also not understanding sometimes how it may be problematic or damaging unconsciously, right? So my family would always like kind of make fun of like little cute things about how you look. So I was a little, this little girl with these big old brown eyes, right? And so everybody talked about my eyes, so big. So I became hyper-conscious and aware of them, thinking that it was something wrong with me, right? This is I'm five, six years old trying to make sense out of this. I'm like, wait, something wrong with my eyes.
SPEAKER_00Listen, they say train up a child to start too.
SPEAKER_02But the craziest part, that's one of the things that people talk about that they like about my physical appearance most, is like my eyes, right? But I had to grow into them things. But they look beautiful. But growing up and while that was like a good hearted conversation. Like, I remember like if somebody lost something, like they had a pin or something, they're like, Sean, come in here and help me.
SPEAKER_00That's out of control.
SPEAKER_02So it was like things like that, right? So, but then and to your point, while that dynamic existed, they always talked about how smart I was, right? Right. Oh, you're so smart, and you can do this, you can do that, which also obviously helped build my confidence, but I still had this hyper awareness around like my appearance in in that earlier on space, but then that also grew into other things as I became more conscious and aware of the world, right? Um, and then another added layer, I would argue, is I was the first person on my mom's side to go to college. So navigating that space and not knowing what I was doing right, what I was doing wrong, just trying to figure it out. And obviously, my family did the best that they could, but it was still a space that was pretty isolating.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Because I, you know, I was primarily raised in the home with my mom, my dad very much so in my life, but I stayed with lived with my mom. Yeah. So, you know, you know, she gave what information she could, but a lot of that I had to figure out on my own. So I think that also, you know, created this consciousness around my abilities, right? Navigating, yeah. Right. So going to college, even undergrad, I went to HBCU, like first, go gambling, go gambling, go, go, go, go Grambling. But it was, it was good for me though. Yeah. It was good for me because like I left where I'm from in Mississippi. Tupelo, shout out to Tupelo. Uh left there, and then I went into another small space, but it was exactly what I needed to help work through some of this, you know, hyper awareness, consciousness around my abilities. If I could actually go to college and do well and be successful and manage and handle all these spaces. Um, and it was, you know, great to be at an HBCU, being with other people that look like me and navigate that space where, you know, black excellence and black education was this was the status quo. Like that was expected.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate you saying it's what you needed to kind of prepare you for the time of the world. Oh, absolutely. You know, you after grad school, or sorry, after undergrad, excuse me, had to go to grad school, right? How did that experience that you needed shape your resilience in like the grad school space?
SPEAKER_02It built my confidence in a different way. So being around other, you know, black people who wanted to be successful, wanted to get a college degree. I remember having uh this professor, like statistics professor, and he's he used to talk about like you gotta be academically nasty. You gotta be academic. I was like, you know what, you're right, you do. You know, like you got to be able to compete in these PWIs, you know, whatever you guys decide to do, you need to be able to do it and be academically nasty. And so those experiences, even though that was just him preaching to the classroom, like it meant so much to me, right? Around like what was expected of me and what I was called to do moving forward. So crazy thing though. I go to school wanting to be a criminal defense attorney.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_02Um Dr. Sean, according to I was like, No, rationale around me wanting to be this, right, was because my favorite cousin wanted to be it. Not because I knew nobody in my family was an attorney. She wanted to be it. I was like, okay, that's what we're gonna do. But me too. Um, and I'm going, I'm on debate teams, doing all this fun stuff in high school, and then I get to college and I was like, oh yeah, no, that's I don't want to do that. But psychology is what I liked. And so I was lucky enough to have blessed to have like really, really great professors. And even another professor was one that really encouraged me to go to grad school because I really didn't know. You know, like it's and not feeling good enough to even do that, right? Back to this whole idea about imposter syndrome, not knowing if I had the skills and and and what what it was going to take for me to get to that point. Yeah. Right. I didn't know any, I mean, there were black psychology in the program teaching the courses, but like in practice, in terms of what I eventually ended up doing, that wasn't the case. Yeah. So, you know, having these people in place and those experiences specifically definitely helped lead the full, you know, lead the charge forward. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You definitely opened the door to this idea that having people already in those positions, so into you is so impactful. It really is. I didn't have exposure to that until after my training, right? So, like going into internship, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So during my doctoral training, the messages I received, I'm gonna just put it out there.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, just say it.
SPEAKER_00And if you find out where I went to school, yeah, that's what it is. But you know, there were some professors there, one in particular. Okay. I'm not gonna say some.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, don't say no names, yeah.
SPEAKER_00But one who was just like, you think you know what you're doing, but you may not know as much. Right? You think you want to do whatever you want to do, and that's not gonna work in psychology. Maybe this is not cut out for you.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00It was so brutal that some professors would pull me aside and be like, you didn't deserve that.
SPEAKER_02Oh wow.
SPEAKER_00But would not speak up to that professor, right? And so I left that experience feeling like I remember one time just like sitting and crying in the stairwell with one of my classmates being like, What the F is this going?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, for sure, for sure, for sure.
SPEAKER_00But God works all things because it took me going to Atlanta, which was a mixed race space, but just a black ass internship experience. For sure, for sure. Where folks were able to like have me talk openly about the stuff. Excellent, right? Hold it and be like, that ain't true. Right. And so I feel like doing internship in Atlanta really equipped me with the skills to do the work that I do, to complete my dissertation, to write this book, to do presentations, to be acknowledged by. Oh boy, down to ASAP.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_00And to feel affirmed now that, like, nah, I'm that girl. It's not the diamonds, it's not the pearl.
SPEAKER_01It's not what Beyonce said. It's not the pearl.
SPEAKER_02I'm not the girl. Okay, exactly. You know, I thought about another thing too, and just like listening to you, like, you know, thinking about my experiences at HBCUs prior to going to PWI for my uh PhD, but also when I went on like internship residency, I was at Vanderbilt. There was one black psychologist. Yeah. Right. And then there were out of the 13 of us of the cohort, there were three black women. And I was the only one married to a black man at the time. So those earlier experiences at HBCUs absolutely prepared me for that. Because I was real clear about who I was. Yeah. You know, when I got there. Also, I mean, even though like we've had these experiences and been grounded in so many different ways, I think we still, to this day, battle with and struggle with negotiating and managing imposter syndrome. Like I think it's just, it's a process.
SPEAKER_00And because of who we are and what we do in spaces that sometimes hope pull us to the carpet of just like, are you gonna succumb to this imposter syndrome? Right. Or are you gonna fight back, right? Because the external messaging is always gonna be there.
SPEAKER_02Right. It's always gonna be there. Do you think for you, does it ever, is it ever more loud than other times for you?
SPEAKER_00For sure. I think it's louder when, to your point at Vanderbilt, right, there's not a lot of representation. Right? And so it's like I know what I know. I'm just gonna speak transparently. But white people have a way of not understanding what you're saying.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00When you say it.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. So like as I'm sharing the knowledge, I'm like, I know what I know, but you making it sound like I don't know what I know. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02I know I answered.
SPEAKER_00Right. I'm clear. So yes, it definitely comes up in certain spaces that we're gonna do.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_00But there are ways in which we can totally manage it, right? So there's a psychology today article out there that we can maybe even link in the show.
SPEAKER_01Oh, we should.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that highlights how to manage imposter syndrome. So some of those ways include like checking the facts, checking the fact that you're not gonna find out you learn the flat facts, right?
SPEAKER_02Be clear.
SPEAKER_00Be clear on who you are and what you've done and what you know. Right, right. Right. Acknowledge some of your failures. So it's not that you are an imposter, right? But you are a person who's on a path of success. Right. Who got some bumps. We all got bumps.
SPEAKER_02But and yeah, like I I see failures or setbacks or however we want to coin them as just natural processes and things and the things that we need to do. As setups, and that it's important for you to learn from them and move forward. Right. And they can propel you forward. It absolutely can. Yeah, it's supposed to, right? For sure. I think it's important also that you're able to like share those feelings, like having a safe space, you know, having people. That's one of the recommendations.
SPEAKER_01Yes, friend.
SPEAKER_02Yes, share it with trusted people. You're my trusted person. So share it. You know, have someone you can, you know, speak to about this and sometimes even just speak life into you and tell you, like, you know what? I hear you, and that's normal, but you are the shit. Yeah, and you're good. Yeah, just like I told you, and you were like, he quoted my book. I'm like, uh, you were like, Duh, I was like, wait, you're amazing. You wrote this book that has so much worth and value and and great, you know, information. Absolutely. Yeah, amen.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I know speak that into you. Please. I'm not gonna spill your tea yet because I want you to announce it, but we'll wait for another show.
SPEAKER_02Right, wait, we'll know another, you know, something else that's important is just let go of these ideas of perfectionism. Perfectionism is not real. We make it up in our heads, and sometimes when we get lost in those loops of perfectionism, it's hard to get out of that when you're thinking that being perfect is the goal, right?
SPEAKER_00And Beyonce said, What? What Beyonce said, catch me when I fall, accept me flaws and all. You know how to beyonce. We pretty much.
SPEAKER_01We went to the concert for another episode. That's an out to say, can you listen? You went to the concert, and that outfit was everything.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for just taking down my imposter.
SPEAKER_02What else? Um, and having some self-compassion, right? Yes.
unknownYes.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, thinking about your self-worth, thinking about, you know, some just internalized, hopefully positive feelings that you develop for yourself and sort of touch and base with that in that way. Uh, thinking about all the good things about you. Like there are amazing things about everybody. You know, there are some things, you know, that may not be ideal, but by and large, I would argue that we're good. We're good people.
SPEAKER_00We're all trying our best. Yeah, we're trying our best, right? In the conditions that we live in. In the conditions, right? Give yourself grace.
SPEAKER_02Um, is there anything else? No, I think this is definitely going to add the link around um imposter syndrome and psychology today. And you can read some more about some important things that you can do if that's something that you struggle with. For sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And now you don't have to thank us for this episode. I know it blessed you.
SPEAKER_02I know it did.
SPEAKER_00You're welcome.
SPEAKER_02You are very welcome.
SPEAKER_00See you next time.
SPEAKER_02Thank you for tuning in to the Rose and Thorns podcast.
SPEAKER_00Don't forget to like, comment, subscribe, and share.
SPEAKER_02Special shout out to LP and the Hive.
SPEAKER_00This podcast is produced by Braxton Turner, Dr. Shun Huddleston, and Dr. P. Ryan Grant.
SPEAKER_02Join us next time. But until then, keep looming.