Rosé + Thorns
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Rosé + Thorns
Interview with a Doula (feat. @jazzminboyd_)
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It may be spooky season, but ain't no vampires on this episode of Rosé + Thorns. All treats and no tricks, P. Ryan talks to Jazzmin Boyd about her experiences and expertise as a doula, her knowledge of PrEP and HIV prevention, and her pleasure navigations as a fat Black woman.
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Um, since this pandemic, I feel like I've definitely slowed down a lot. I feel like I used to be such a busybody and just out and doing all the things. Yeah. Um, but it this has definitely like slowed me down and taking some time for me to kind of like come back to myself and be like, okay, what is it that I need to be doing?
SPEAKER_00You ready? It's Roseanne Thorns. Hey there, lovebugs, and welcome to another episode of the Roseanne Thorns podcast. I am P. Ryan, and I am here with a full spectrum doula, a public health worker, a sex and contraceptive educator, and an astrology enthusiast. Everyone, welcome. Miss Jasmine Boyd. Hey! Hello. How are you? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. And I'm so happy to have you here. So happy that you have made time to come on this show. But before we start, this is a question that I ask every guest just to kind of set the atmosphere, get your temperature, see how we need to move. How's your heart?
SPEAKER_02Um, my heart is well. Yes. It's doing very well today. Um, had a great day. I got me my rose here special for this.
SPEAKER_00I'm so jealous. You know, the people gonna get me, okay? Because every time I tape with folks, they're just like, I got my rose especially for the show. And I'm just like, oh girl, I'm not drinking right now.
SPEAKER_02Well, as long as like your guests right are like loosened up and happy. I guess that that makes it easier for you, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. So you can give us all the tea and all the well, your heart is good. You had a great day. How have you been in this COVID season and kind of, you know, what have you learned about yourself in this season?
SPEAKER_02Um, there's been definitely some highs and lows, I would say, during this time. Um, just a lot of uh periods of just loneliness or feeling as if um, you know, things are kind of happening around you and you don't really know what to do. Um and uh seeing a lot of just tragic things happen in people's lives, um, and not knowing how to fully be there and present and capable and trying to do it at the best way that I can. Um, and sometimes feeling as if it's inadequate or not enough, and um mostly just being my own internal kind of feelings and interpretations on it. Um, but I think that through this experience, I've learned to kind of um, like I said a little earlier, like to come back to myself and kind of collect myself. Um, I can be a bit of a uh a person who's kind of caught up in whatever's going on that sometimes I don't look at the bigger picture of things. Um making sure that I take that time to collect myself, to decompress, uh to really just check in about things. I can just kind of go with the flow and not really take the time to come back to, you know, the drawing board and seeing, like, okay, where am I supposed to be? What am I doing right now? So um it's been a bit of a tug of war with kind of dealing with that, but I think I've gotten a good flow, um, especially this last year, just kind of, yeah, just being present to myself.
SPEAKER_00I feel all bits of that. And you know what's kind of jacking me up, or what has been jacking me up is that feeling of feeling inadequate, right? Folks are getting up out of here by natural causes, by unprecedented causes, by self-causes. We have financial stress, we got school student loan stress, we got COVID. The list goes on. Yes, and you're so right. Sometimes you know, you feel inadequate and you don't feel equipped to show up, not only for others, but you don't feel like you're equipped to show up for yourself. And one thing that I've been kind of holding to normalize all of that is like, girl, I'm not equipped in this season. Yeah. Like maybe when we were not in unprecedented when the times were precedented, yeah. We could learn how to figure it out, we could learn how to grow and adapt, but it feels like every single moment of every single day, something new pops up, right?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, yeah. It's especially hard too when when it's just like you don't you don't know what to do, you don't know where to go. And uh yeah, so so having those moments and having those like real moments where you're just like, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Um, and I thought that was it was very well done in the beginning of the pandemic where people were kind of like checking in a lot and just kind of seeing, you know, hey, how's it going? How are things, you know, especially I don't, I I can't speak to you, but I can definitely say for myself, I'm usually very a happy go-lucky kind of person.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, and so um it was hard for me to kind of see a transition with even if within my personality and how things are going because I wasn't around people and I really thrive off of the energy of other people around. So, like just taking a moment to be like, oh yeah, that things have been a little off lately. I haven't been quite myself, you know, and what does that mean and how is that looking for me?
SPEAKER_00And that awareness that I'm hearing you have is kind of making the switch from doing, right? Trying to figure out how to do and fix and maintain the situation and really just being, noticing what the hell is going on in our external surroundings and also what's going on inside. And so, shout out to you for reaching that point, shout out to me for reaching that point, and I hope you listeners are getting to that point as well.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and it sounds cute and all put together, but it took a while for me to get. No, it's a hot ass mess. Y'all see in the aftermath of everything, right?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it's a mess during the process, and even in this moment, right? There are moments where it's just like, all right, the hot mess express has definitely reached the station. Yeah. So thank you for highlighting that it's not all smooth sailing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no.
SPEAKER_00Now, Jasmine, Jasmine, refresh my memory. We met at Sex Down South.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00Which is so apt for this season. I feel like a lot of the guests that I've had on here, I've either met them at Sex Down South or I, you know, spent time with them at Sex Down South, right? And so for those who don't know or who don't remember from previous episodes, Sex Down South is this awesome sex and sexuality convention that happens in Atlanta. And you mentioned being a happy-go-lucky person. And that really is kind of the impression that has stuck with me since we met those years ago. You've just been like a breath of fresh air, a ray of sunshine, like, you know, that girl, just a happy spirit.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. I feel like we met in a very fun, unique way. I think uh the workshop we were in was like a face-fitting workshop, which was great. I think it's nice. Yeah, I meet a lot of people through like the most random occurrences. So yeah, it's like very on brand.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and I appreciate that workshop. If anyone, you know, needs needs me to be a seat, right? Or needs me to sit. Look at me expanding. But I wanted to have you on the show, not just to necessarily talk about face-sitting, but to talk about your specialty, which is black women, being a doula, um, public health, just kind of a little bit and a little piece of everything, right? Yeah, so let's jump in. Recently, there has been this huge emergence on social media, right? Centering luxury and black women. And one of those luxuries, you're seeing it on TikTok, you're seeing it on Twitter, um, Instagram, all the social medias, is you know, a lot more black women are utilizing doulas, not only for the birthing process, but for the pre-birthing process, the post-birth process. Um, and so I'm so honored to have you kind of on here. Not kind of, you're on here, right? I'm so happy to have you on here to kind of talk about what it is to be or what it means is to be a doula um and to provide care to Black women.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00So, what is a full spectrum doula?
SPEAKER_02So, okay, I'll I'll go by saying like what a doula is specifically, and then we'll talk more about the full spectrum part of it. Okay. Um, a doula is any kind of non-medically trained, um, sort of a community care worker. So essentially we're there to offer support um for pregnant individuals um during their pregnancy, uh whatever it could be before, uh during the pregnancy or postpartum, um parts of the pregnancy continuum, so to speak. Um and then where full spectrum doula work comes in, it's kind of hitting the marks during the full spectrum of pregnancy. So whether you're contemplating it, whether you are actively pregnant, whether you know you've already birthed a baby and now you're kind of dealing with, you know, raising a child, it's kind of being there in all sorts of those um capacities to kind of be available for that person and whatever choices they're making. The way that I got into it is just understanding that there are so many experiences within the reproductive um system. And so uh understanding that I wanted to provide a more inclusive, kind of anti-oppressive, more patient-centered way of being available and supporting um folks who are thinking about having children um or thinking about anything in in regard of their uh reproductive plans. Um, and so leaning into uh being a doula and understanding um pregnancy and understanding birth as this kind of like spiritual or um just uh I would say a life experience. I think it's also understanding too that with life is death. And so understanding that for me, that kind of continuum that I have to be present, or I could be that that kind of guy that's that support for individuals along the continuum. So whether it be that they're considering having children or considering kind of terminating a pregnancy, whether they have a child and they're alive or a child and they've passed, um, just kind of being that bridgeway between those kind of um experiences of life, essentially. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. So I didn't realize that being a dola kind of involved or a full spectrum dola involved all of those pieces. And you know, you touched on this on the end, but even in the beginning, you talked about if you're contemplating having a child, you know, you're you show up in a role, um, guiding women or folks with vulvas and vaginas and ovaries, right? Guiding those individuals through the birthing process, if they've lost a child, if they want to terminate a pregnancy. What are some of the duties that, you know, because you're not just a machine that's then delivering a baby? It sounds like you're kind of coming in and somewhat uh you're somewhat of a, as you mentioned, a guide, a counselor, someone kind of like standing in the gap, uh, a spiritual leader, as you said. So what are some of the duties that all of that entails?
SPEAKER_02It takes a lot of uh just connecting with people. Um, my range of work can vary. There are some people who hire me just to get information. They don't necessarily want physical support. Um, they may want more of an emotional support or just kind of like information, knowledge uh as they guide them along this process. Um, so I've had people who would consider talking to me if they're contemplating whether or not they want to continue uh a pregnancy or terminate it. Um, I've had individuals who are interested in having a home birth and want to know more information. And so they'll reach out and um will work on that capacity. Um, I'll have other people who may want information on how uh their support people can be present and helpful during a birth in the hospital. And so I could be able to provide support and guidance to their support people who will be there present at their birth and not necessarily me, but they can be there and get this information to be um helpful.
SPEAKER_00So this is really like a systems position, right? A position that goes through various systems to provide kind of holistic care.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think it's really important because uh a lot of times going into this birthing um process, I think a lot of women uh specifically, but um not exclusively including just women, but I think a lot of birthing people do not understand their rights, do not understand what they can do during birth, um, and feel very, very much so like they lose who they are within this process because everybody's so hyper-focused on baby, getting baby here, safe, well delivered, that sometimes a lot of what their desires, what they want is kind of lost in between all of that. And then it's kind of shoved to the side for the safety of other things. And you see it a lot in hospitals when you have providers who do talk more about like, well, this is for the safety of the baby, or think about the child or this. And it's like, I don't think anybody has gone through nine months of carrying a baby, 10 months carrying a baby, to say like they don't care about this child at the end and they just want to do anything. Like it's obviously a conscious, intentional decision for things and they care and they think about this. So it's you have to understand that this is also a person too, outside of this vessel carrying a baby, you know? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And when you affirm the needs of the person carrying the baby, I just think from like a psychological standpoint, right? Depression in the mother, anxiety in the mother can transfer to the baby, not only at birth and after, but even like while the baby's cooking, right? Absolutely, yeah. So when you address the needs of the person doing the birthing, you also create an environment for the baby to thrive.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00What were some of the kind of like certifications or um things you had to do to become a duola or even a full spectrum doula?
SPEAKER_02So initially for the doula, the birth doula training, um, it was a matter of just kind of finding a training. Um and there's there's so many different types out there. I know there's a lot of like weekend ones that people really um covet because it's very quick. You just kind of get it over and done with a week. But I um I'm really a big uh a big um, I guess like a cheerleader for people kind of like going out there and networking with other doulas and building up that experience because that training doesn't really kind of, you know, obviously it doesn't caps, it doesn't capture everything that you go through um during a birthing experience. And there's so many different things that could happen um and so many ways that you could be supportive to individuals in in whatever experience they have. Um, so there've been clients that I've worked with who are looking for folks who have more experience with working with VBACs or people who have had virginal uh vaginal births after a cesarean, um, or folks who have um chronical illness and wants a doula who has experience working with that. So it's like a lot of these trainings don't really specially talk about that. So the experience really helps. So you kind of networking with other people, being backups, that's how I kind of started, just kind of backing up for people, uh, being present at their um prenatal appointments. Uh, some some people want to labor mostly at home, so being present there to kind of support and just kind of seeing the process and emotions and then getting an idea of it. And I thought that was specifically important for me as a woman who's never had a child, who's never been pregnant, kind of seeing this process go because I wanted to be able to be supportive to women who are going through this experience, even though I know I haven't fully gone through this experience myself. So being able to see that and like be present for it and to say from my experience, this is what I've recognized, you know, with with ever in this uh capacity.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for sharing that, you know, you are a woman who has never been pregnant, has not given birth. Thinking of the experiences that you've had to date, what has that kind of, or what place has that put you in in regards to how you want to go through the birthing process, or even if you do want to go through the birthing process? Sorry for not asking if that's a desire of your.
SPEAKER_02Oh, that's fine. Um, it's funny because someone else had asked me this question uh not too long ago. Um, but I think that through this process, I've learned to uh be able to talk about my health and really stand firm in my decisions that I want to make. I think with every client that I've talked to, I always talk to them about their birthrights and letting them know and understand like this is your moment, this is you. And whatever you need to make you happy, to make you make this experience as I don't know, I won't, I wouldn't say as as as um, I don't know, as easy as possible, because it's not really an easy process, but anything we can do to help aid you with this process, you let us know we could do whatever it is that you need, but this is your show and you run it. And if you keep that in mind, whatever you want, you ex, but you don't have to worry about changing anything to um make anybody feel comfortable, they're supposed to be doing everything for you. This is a service for you because you're going through a very big experience right now, you know? And so understanding that, just knowing that, like, you know, if I desire for someone to explain something fully to me before they do anything, then that needs to be done. And I'm gonna sit strong in that. And if it's not, then I need you to leave this room or I need you, I need someone else to come in, or whatever the case may be, just knowing what your rights are as a birthing individual in whatever capacity.
SPEAKER_00You're kind of modeling that patient autonomy. And I love how you're also affirming that, you know, with the folks that you work with too. And for me, all I'm hearing is that term that you used earlier on, anti-oppressive. Right? So really breaking down systems of oppression. And I know that you work specifically with, and not saying that's your entire patient population, but you work a lot with black women, and that anti-oppressive stance or framework is really important because of just the of the outcomes that are you know recorded in data by different organizations. So the CDC says that black women are three times more likely to die from a pregnancy-related cause than white women. Right. And they attribute that to variation in quality health care, underlying chronic conditions, structural racism, right, and implicit bias. The March of Dimes, um, which focuses on maternal health, talked about how pregnant Black and Latino women were at higher risk than white women of being infected by COVID, which increased their chance of being admitted to intensive care by 50% and increased their chance of intubation by 70%. Right. And so these experiences have implications on the birthing process and on the health of their child. And then also from Harvard's um School of Public Health, Anna Langer says basically, black women are undervalued. She says that they are not monitored as carefully as white women are, and when they are present with symptoms, they are often dismissed. What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_02So many thoughts. So many thoughts. Okay. So um, yes, to all of that. I I see it all the time. Um, most of the births that I've attended, um, and I've been a doula for now over five years. Most of the births that I've attended have been in hospitals. And I can say I see a lot of this happening, a lot of um dismissive um behavior, a lot of um just no trauma-informed care, no informed consent, a lot of just telling people they need to do this, not explaining their options, um, dismissing someone's uh level of pain, um, telling them that their experience is not what it is, or or you know, other people don't witness this, so this isn't what it is, or whatever the case may be. Um, and it's really disheartening to see that. Um and my job as a doula, I'm there to work with the patient. I'm not necessarily the advocate for the patient, unfortunately. Um, and I try to, like you said, kind of put that self-advocacy for you to step up and say, listen, this is what I desire. It's not being done. So something needs to be done now, you know? And a lot of times it's difficult in that space when you have a authoritative um, someone like a medical professional who's telling you this, that, you know, this is what it is. And a lot of times people listen to that because they're like, okay, you're a medical authority. I'm gonna listen to what it is that you have to say about this, but you have to also understand that they have a process that works for them and it may not necessarily uh align with what it works for you and what's going on with you. Um, and I always try to make sure that my clients understand that whenever, you know, that like, yes, that may be what they're used to, but that doesn't mean that that's what it is always. Um, so for instance, I was at a birth a couple days ago, and I had a um a nurse say to me or say to a client that um she can't get uh what they call intermittent um monitoring. So essentially when you go to the hospital, they put you on monitors to check for your um your contractions, to track for the baby's heart rate. Um, and usually if you're a low risk pregnancy, that means you don't have any like, there's no issues with baby. No issues with you in terms of like medical conditions and things, and there's nothing that they're concerned about that they can be able to do what they call intermittent, like you know, monitoring. So you would be on the monitors and you could be off the monitor, so you can move around and do things, you don't have to worry about staying in the bed. And so with this particular client, she had no health concerns, there were no concerns for baby. So she she worked, she asked for that. And it was something that she talked about in her birth plan. Of course, at the hospital, they all are confused about this, and they're like, okay. And so she says, like, oh, you know, in my experience, and I've been working here for like four years, I've never seen a woman come in here and not get continuous monitoring. Like everybody gets continuous monitoring. And I'm just like, yeah, that's doesn't necessarily a requirement. And then she pulls out this thing and says, like, oh yeah, these are the reasons why you need to be continuously monitored. And it's like, okay, so because this person had a uh cesarean in her previous pregnancy, now she has to be continuously monitored, but there's no other information about anything else. And so, you know, you if you're somebody who's just gonna listen to that, you're just gonna go with that. But if you're someone who knows your rights and what you know, what's going on, you're going to, you know, talk to about this and and then make sure you get an understanding so that you can be able to get what it is that you desire. And it doesn't not everybody's like up for that.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. That power differential or kind of maintaining that power differential is just a full barrier to proper care.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. It's difficult. It is very difficult. And I see how a lot of people that I meet prenatally, they're very vibrant, strong individuals, tend to kind of be more submissive, very closed-mouthed during that experience. And it's hard because it's like you're in extreme pain. Nobody wants to be debating with somebody when you're in pain about something that you desire. It's really hard. And so I see where the issue becomes and how these things can happen where you have these people who are dismissed or told that, like, you know, this isn't it, or you know, understanding things. And then let's not even get into like pain tolerance and stuff because that's a whole we can because let me tell you something.
SPEAKER_00You're spitting all of this knowledge. Oh man. And, you know, it's really just pulling my mind to times of enslavement. We already know that the medical community um has a history of kind of working in, as you said, the ways that work for them at the expense of their patient. When I say their patient, I'm specifically talking about black folks. And we think about times of enslavement and how you know we were seen as property, we were overlooked. Our pain tolerance was seen as higher than the average person, our work capacity was seen as higher. We were literally seen as tools for birthing to create to enlarge someone else's property.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. To see the like transition from granny midwives being in charge of all the births happening to being told that they are disgusting and that they have these um things that they do that are not hygienic and they're hurting people and just get dismissed completely after they've done such great work over such a long time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If you wanted to drop a gem about the pain tolerance, you have the floor.
SPEAKER_02Well, there's a history of just uh within uh medicine and especially with obstetrics, that um people of color have a higher pain tolerance. Um so with that, you see a lot of um, I see a lot of in the hospital uh people dismissing the level of pain that someone's experiencing. So a client can say to me that on a scale of uh one to 10, they're experiencing what is an eight. Um, and I would see a doctor say, well, they don't look like they're experiencing an eight or something, or they just want to get pain medication. And it's frustrating because it's like, how do you, how can you sit there and say that or expect to understand that someone is experiencing something that you are not experiencing at all? And it is it's frustrating to see that.
SPEAKER_00I heard you say at one point, you know, I'm here to help with the birthing process. I'm not really here to speak on your behalf, right? So being in, and shout out to you for acknowledging that, right? Because you're clearly abiding by your ethical standards and principles. But how do you kind of navigate that space, knowing that you can't really speak on behalf of your client and they may be having those clearly unjust experiences?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Now that's my partake on it. I know some doors do it a little differently. Um, my personal understanding of it is that I am here to be support. I'm not here to kind of like, you know, cause a riot, so to speak. So um, so I I love to let either the support person be that person to speak up and say all these things, or the client do it. Um, and I'm more of a let me kind of agitate the situation a little bit by asking little stupid questions at times, you know, like, oh, interesting. Can you tell me more about that? Or why is that you think? Or is there so for instance, what I said about the nurse um who was talking about the continuous monitoring? I asked her, I was like, so is there anybody who would not who could get intermittent monitoring? And she was like, I actually have never met anybody. And I was like, wow, that's very interesting. There's I don't think everybody who comes here has high risk pregnancies. And she said that's true. And it just gets people thinking. And then so now you have to ask yourself some questions or think about some things. And then this usually, I'll usually throw it back to the client and ask them, so okay, what do you think about this? Well, how do you feel? Would you like to talk to someone about it? You know, just kind of like edging on those questions to kind of get them to like, yeah, let me think about that. Or um, if uh say a provider comes in and says that, okay, we need you to get a C-section now because this isn't happening. Um, okay, can we get a few minutes, moments to think about that? Um, can we weigh some options? You know, just kind of edging along the conversation so that it's not a this is it and that's all that's gotta be done, you know?
SPEAKER_00You know, you're really blessing me because all I'm thinking about is again this anti-oppressive stance, right? Doing what you can to really kind of break down those systems of oppression or even just reshape the ways that the folks who have been given power think about how they're handling the different patients that come in. Before we switch gears, just a tiny bit. You know, we had a little conversation before uh the show started. And I had shared with you that one of my dreams, you know, congratulations to Rihanna, we're glad you're pregnant. I said that one of my dreams was to get pregnant, right? And I say that jokingly, but truly, one of my dreams in this lifetime is to have a child biologically. And, you know, I kind of discredited myself and said, Well, we know that can't happen. I can't get pregnant. And you were really affirming and said, Well, no, even though you can't get pregnant, you wanting a child makes you a part of that birthing process. And I'm sure there are other people who are male identified who aren't really carrying babies or will be a part of that aspect. But could you just give us a couple points on how we would be a part of that birthing process and how we can be efficient support systems to those who might be giving birth?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. So if you are looking to uh find surrogates, um, like working with you along with finding like an agency or maybe connecting you with individuals who would be interested in that. Um, I think too in part, if you are, if you found someone who is going to be a donor or surrogate for you, um, and you wanted to be more involved within the birthing process, um, being able to be that bridge between the two of you to be able to be supportive and helpful. So ways that you could be affirming or understanding or showing up for this person who is going to be kind of that person to deliver your child into the world and ways that you can kind of be involved within it. So whether that be um you can kind of like host uh events or um, you know, be there for prenatal uh check-ins, um, whether it be you want to uh, I don't know, what in whatever capacity involved with that. Um and in terms of like during the labor, how you could be there to support um this person um kind of having the baby, birthing the baby. So if it be you are doing uh what they what we call the uh the the baby dance um or or the sway, essentially it's kind of like a movement where like it's a partner kind of sway back and forth, but it's helps to kind of progress labor along um and kind of keep you know the person moving so that they could be able to kind of get the baby down using gravity as the best process. Um, so ways that you could just kind of be involved within that process to to be supportive. And I love, I want to see more men in general be involved in this. I think that we think a lot about pregnancy and it's just focused on women specifically. And it's not just about women. I think that like as support people, you can be there to be helpful during this process. It really helps. Like as a doula, I understand that my role in this is very temporary. I come in at a very small portion and come out, and I don't have any attachment to anybody or anything. And I understand that, but I love to utilize the people who love this person or who are connected to this person the most so that I could be able to kind of help them get to a place where they need to be. Um, and I understand that you may not have the background or understand this process, but I can help you through it and get you to kind of do these things for them. So I love using partners um in the birthing setting, having them go over, give massages, uh, you know, like tell them, you know, be like things like you're doing a great job, or you're so strong, or you're like, you're doing this well, you know, or like, yeah, just kind of having them be very involved in this so that um they can be of great support to their partner.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I love that. And, you know, I'm not a doula, but you know, I do work in mental health. So in addition to being there physically, you can also be there mentally, right? Get down to the therapy office, get your mind right before the baby comes.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Now I mentioned that we're gonna switch gears a little bit, and here's why we focused a good chunk of our talk thus far on anti-oppression. And one of the things that I think really combats oppression is access.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00There's a phrase that I've been kind of holding that I kind of thought up one day. Access is an intervention, right? And so I wanted to provide that intervention in this talk. You know, before we came together today, I went out and canvassed different black women, right? And said, Hey, I'm about to go talk to Adula. Do you have any questions? Because I really wanted to make this episode for individuals who are going through the birthing process, who are thinking about it, who would like to go through it one day. Yeah. And so I had a couple questions come back to me, and I was wondering if we could just take some time to go through them.
SPEAKER_02Sure thing.
SPEAKER_00All righty. Here we go. So one person asked, in the hospital, you get an IV of drugs to manage pain or a shot in the back, also called an epidural.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Does it make the baby drowsy like regular pain meds? What are some of the alternative ways to manage the birthing pain?
SPEAKER_02So, yes, to those two things. Um, so uh the IV drugs um will be administered obviously through the IV, the IV, the heplet, headlock. Um, and then the epidural would be something an anesthesiologist would have to administer. And it's kind of a localized anesthesia. So it's supposed to work essentially from your abdomen down, um, and kind of numbing that area. Um, whereas the IV would just kind of be administered through the bloodstream, so it doesn't really numb anything, but it's essentially just kind of cut curve the edge of a contraction pain. Um and so I think the thing to understand with these medications that they're all opioid-based. Um, and I know for folks who are managing um, you know, uh some just within the opioid crisis, I know a lot of people are kind of managing their addictions. Um, so just to keep that in mind too. I have had clients where that was an issue that came up where they kind of had pending things coming. So just keeping that in mind. Um, I will say that with these um narcotics, they will cross the placenta um membrane to the baby. Um now, depending on the drug, it could be a little stronger, a little less. Um, some side effects are just usually the baby kind of has some drowsiness, um, slow down a little bit. Um, a big concern is the heart rate, um, which is something that they usually, because all of this would be administered in the hospital. This is something that they would be uh monitoring in the hospital when they um administer this medication um to a client. Um, and so essentially it could affect how the baby you know responds during labor, which is always uh an issue. Um, and then additionally, uh it could be uh an issue for moms as or for the client as well. Um, so whether it be I I've seen some people get really drowsy or really tired, um I've seen uh the itchiness for some folks. Um, and then there could be some other kind of complications with like nausea, vomiting, and things like that. Um, on the flip side of it, I think that I've I would never talk a client out of getting anything if they want it, they desire it. I work with anybody who wants whatever it is. If you come to me and you say, I'm getting, I want to see section, I don't want anybody to say anything about it, I'm affirming what you want because that's what you want. I'm not here to tell you anything differently. Um, because I think a lot of people think that's something dualists do is kind of talk you out of getting epidurals or any pain management, but that's not at all. And I've seen the benefits of people getting um epidurals, for instance, especially if they are not tolerating the pain well, kind of can relax their pelvic area. Um, and that's a it's very important because obviously you have but so much space down there to pass the baby through. If you are tensing up, there's a a chance that you can kind of build up some um, what we what we would say is uh your cervix can get a little swollen and then it takes up space so baby can't be able to pass through. So epidural in that um situation can really be helpful with kind of relaxing, you know, the cervix, the pelvis area so big so the person isn't kind of tensing up and they can be able to pass baby through easily. So I've seen how epidurals can be very helpful, but also on the flip side, I think that you need to understand, you know, the other sides of it, the pros and cons with everything. Um, so you can be able to make the most informed decision for yourself. And in terms of like other ways to manage pain, movement is your best, is your best option. Um, I so my what I tell clients is early in labor, so very early when contractions are kind of far apart, they're coming every now and then, maybe like every five to 10 minutes or so. Try your best to get as much rest as you can. And then as you're leading up to uh labor getting more active and getting into a transitionary phase, that's when you wanted to be doing the most movement. And you want to kind of move um between every five contractions or so. So doing things that really will take your mind off of the pain and really get you doing stuff. Unfortunately, in the hospital, and we talked about this in terms of continuous monitoring, you're just sitting in a bed and then that's sucky because you're sitting there and you're just taking the pain. And so you're more inclined to decide to take um the role of going down to getting, like, you know, pain medication um to kind of curve that. But if you're moving around, if you're doing things like hydrotherapy, so if you're doing the shower or the bath, a lot of women like that, massages, um, you know, walking up and down stairs, swaying back and forth on the birth ball, bouncing up and down. These things can kind of distract you, but then also kind of work with you in the pain. And then for me personally, I've seen that it progresses labor a lot faster than you know, you just sitting in the bed and waiting and sleeping it off, you know? So being able to kind of move through the pain is definitely something that is not meant to be sit and stagnant about. You gotta move through this whole process to get that baby out, right?
SPEAKER_00Y'all write that down. That sounds like a gem to me. Write that down.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Now, here's the next question. Is it still recommended that people with vaginas and ovaries consult doctors when hoping to conceive after the age of 35?
SPEAKER_02Yes, if this is your first pregnancy, they it's highly recommended. Um, but I think with anybody considering getting pregnant, I think it's important to kind of consult your doctor. Um, just, you know, kind of keep it in motion with things and making sure that you're up to date on your health and and that that everything is going well. Even if you do decide that you want to do a home birth, I think it's important to kind of have at least that um rapport with the provider just in case anything goes wrong. Any midwife who's doing home birth is going to tell you that to have some type of connection with the hospital just in case there is a transport that's necessary. So I say keep them abreast about things. Um, and then that way you can be able to have all of your health information together for whatever decision you want to make.
SPEAKER_00Here's another one. What are steps a person can take, or what are some steps you take with high-risk pregnancies to make sure both the mother and child have a successful delivery?
SPEAKER_02I so I do engage with high-risk pregnancies for the most part. Um, and I just will tell clients to be on top of their health. I check in usually about things. So whether it be um I see a lot of uh diabetes or gestational diabetes, um, hypertension or issue or um history of preclintia and things like that. Um, so just making sure that you're kind of informed about things um in regards to your health. Um, and then also making sure you're getting to your prenatal checks regularly. Um, and then just staying informed about your options as well in the birthing process, what you can do. Um, and for the best delivery, um yeah, I guess that's just pretty much it. I don't that that will probably be for the most successful delivery options, just to making sure that you're on top of everything. Um, and really if you have a birth plan, really kind of put that out there and understand your birthing options and your rights um for wherever you're gonna be birthing. Um yeah, just keeping that in mind as well.
SPEAKER_00Now, we talked about advocacy throughout this talk, right? One person asked though, just to kind of refresh their memory, what are some ways Black women can advocate for themselves during the time of conception through the third trimester? What are some different things you could advocate for yourself on?
SPEAKER_02You can advocate for yourself uh knowing and understanding your birthrights. So wherever you're gonna give birth at, whether it be at home, whether it be in the hospital, knowing what your rights are in terms of being able to birth your child and uh making sure that they're safe. Um, you can make a birth plan, and that's a great way to get informed about all of your options and what's available to you. Um and it could it could be as small as you want, it could be as large as you want. Um, but I really love for people to kind of go out there and understand what is available. I would love for a day that we get past this idea that, like, oh, my mom didn't do that, or my grandma didn't do that. Like, I understand that, but this is for you. And what would what is it that you would like to do? And what would you like to understand about this? Because a lot of times our mothers or grandmothers going into this process didn't really know what their rights were or what they could do. And so they just went by what they thought the authority was telling them to do, right? This this doctor in this office who understands this is telling them what to do. And it doesn't necessarily mean that that works for you or what you can do. Um, so kind of getting to research and understand what it is that you want. And I'm a firm advocate of support people, like, but real support people. Like I know that some of my clients want to bring their baby dads, um, or or you know, they want to bring like their little cousin who's gonna be there to help them and show them TikTok videos and things, but you want people who are gonna be really supportive. They're not gonna be distractions, they're not gonna be people who are going to be um not helping you during this process. I think sometimes they don't think that these I think that we think of support people as you know, people in our family who just gonna sit with us there, but you also want to understand that these people who are gonna be there during a very stressful moment in your life. And so who is gonna be the least stress-inducing there? Who is gonna be supportive of you at that time? Who is gonna be there to um, you know, build you up when you feel like you've lost your voice or you don't know what to do? You know, think about that in in that moment as well.
SPEAKER_00Now we're gonna switch gears a little bit to at-home births. Yeah, you mentioned that you primarily work within the hospital, but some women had some questions around at home. Have you noticed an increase? So this is a question. Have you noticed an increase in patient flow? And do you think more black women are starting to choose at home births?
SPEAKER_02I personally haven't noticed an increase in patient flow, but I will say I've noticed an increase of um people looking into other options. For themselves, which I really love to see. I unfortunately, when it comes to home births, it's it is it is a pricey thing for some people. I understand that to be. And especially a lot of the clients that I work with are from low-income communities who may not have jobs to support them being able to get a home birth. As you kind of stated before, it's kind of a luxury for some people, right? And so in this day and age where we have to depend on, you know, whatever options are available for us, and insurance isn't really kind of paying for home births. We have to depend on what our insurance will pay for. And that is usually a hospital birth for some people. But I think with more awareness of doulas and midwives, I think it's becoming a um an age of where people are really looking at their options and really exploring information, which I love to see. I love for women and especially black women to kind of know what it is that they can do and be firm advocates of what it is that they desire within any aspect. So I've been seeing a lot more of that. And um it's it's it warms my heart when I like call a client, I'd be like, hey, I match with you from this organization and they're like already know what a doula is. And I'm like, oh great, this takes a lot of pressure off of me having to explain this to you now and explain, like, you know, if if this is something that's worthwhile and whatnot.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. That sounds awesome. That sounds great. Thank you. Now, speaking of luxury at home births being kind of pricey, let's get into some coins for our last question to wrap up this section. What is the typical cost for a doula? And are their services covered by insurance?
SPEAKER_02So, okay, typically I've seen anywhere between $500 to about $2,000. It can run you for services. Sorry, I know some doulas have like uh plans where they could uh do three prenatal appointments, be there during your labor, and then have two postpartum visits, and that can be the $2,000 in total. So you can kind of like, you know, price point whatever it is that you desire from this um doula. Um so it can vary between the services and costs, and obviously with experience, probably is a more pricier um doula. And in terms of it being covered by insurance, I have seen it. I heard that it's a lengthy process. I currently am not a certified doula, so I haven't gone through any certification, just my own personal uh opinions on it. I just feel like everything just needs to be like certified for things. And it's hard when it's a position like a doula who is I don't, I don't know. I don't feel like it needs to be a licensed thing to do, but nevertheless, um it's my thoughts on it. But I know there are some some licensed doulas, so to speak, certified, that um do decide to get payback from insurance. And I know it's a lengthy process that they have to be on top of because it could take months for them to kind of uh uh essentially reimburse them for services. Um, so it's an option. You would have to just look in with your um insurance company to see um and what that will look like for you and how many um visits, so to speak, that they would uh cover for you for do a now I ran out of questions, but now I got a question, right?
SPEAKER_00So, you know, you shared your your perspective on licensed versus unlicensed. Could you speak to kind of you know that process? We see that with unlicensed, you you've shadowed, you've trained. Um tell us about that licensure piece or that certification piece. Um yeah, what is that process like and and what's your stance on that?
SPEAKER_02Okay, I know so when I was considering it, um I know that one of the largest agencies was Donut International, and they require you to be trained by one of their certified like trainers. Um, and you would just have to do like, you know, the required trainings for them, um, some reading requirements, answer some questions, and then send off your certification packet, and then you're certified for a couple of years. This is good if you want to work for like particular agencies that have that. They they some agencies do require that you be certified in order to work with them. Um, it's also good if you want to do sometimes with independent work um meeting clients. So if you want it to be on like care.com or something and say that you're a doula or whatever the case may be, people will look at it and be like, okay, this person's certified. I feel more comfortable choosing this person. Um, and obviously for insurance purposes too, that would that's a qualification for that. Um personally, in my experience, nobody ever asks me if I'm a licensed doula. I think they just ask me about my experience. Sometimes I get the occasional, do you have children? But it's never, it's personally never been weighed into me uh providing service, honestly. And it never speaks to what I can do and how I can be helpful. So I just didn't really see a need for it myself.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, get the girls together. Okay. That's all right. Well, Jasmine, I appreciate you so much for you know spending time and talking about you know being your experience as a dual la, maternal health among black women. We're gonna take things up just a little step, right? And switch gears a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00In addition to being a doula, uh-huh, you are a prep counselor, okay? Now you stepped from you know the community next door and into my neighborhood, okay? Okay.
SPEAKER_02Let's talk about the sex. Okay, come on. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So let's give the people some education, okay? What is PrEP?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so PrEP is an acronym for pre-exposure prophylaxis. It is a medication used to prevent HIV transmission and to reduce your risk of HIV transmission. So I usually say to clients or it's patients in the uh health centers like if you are someone who has a partner that you don't know what their status is, or you have multiple partners, or you just want to make sure that you can go around and have the fun that you want and not have to worry about HIV, this is a good medication for you. Um, it's a pill that you would take once a day, every day to prevent HIV transmission. I like to give people uh analogies since I feel like it really helps people understand things. Um, I think of it like birth control, but for HIV. So you take birth control umce daily and you take it obviously in preparation for sex so that you don't get pregnant. So essentially we're prep, you would take this pill once a day in preparation for you having sex so that you don't get HIV. Anyone can take it, you just have to be over 77 pounds, obviously HIV negative. Um, and then they do some like health screenings just to check and make sure that you're healthy enough to tolerate the medication well.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And that analogy is spot on because I got my little alarm, just like birth control.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01Take it every day.
SPEAKER_00No, I would love for us to just take some time. You know, prep has been around for a while, but there are still so many myths around prep.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so let's clear them up because we don't want the people going down the wrong road.
SPEAKER_02No, no, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So the one myth, uh, let's start with how often one should take prep. So we talked about every day. Some people are saying, no, if you have enough in your system, you can miss a day or two and you'll be fine. What are your thoughts around that?
SPEAKER_02Okay, so when it comes to the medication, um, when we talk about meds, we talk about the what they call the half-life of the medication, right? So once you take it, like after um, how long is it until the medication is still available in your system? And so we see that for the half-life of prep, it it doesn't exceed more than a day. And so that's why you would need to take it daily, um, so that you could be able to build enough of it in your system that if anything does happen, it could be able to work effectively. Now, for there have been studies uh specifically for folks that are assigned male at birth um in prep, um, where you could do uh sort of a regimen called prep on demand, um, where, and this works for folks who are may have periods where they are more sexually active and then some periods where they're not, where they will take like um what they say it's a a two-one one kind of regimen. So you will take two pills a day of, um, one after, and then the one the day the next day following that after. And that will build up enough in your system for that. Now, again, this is for folks assigned male at birth. So for our folks who are signed women at birth, this doesn't really work for you in that option, which sucks, but it's it's an option available. Um, so I see some people kind of utilize that prep on demand regimen every so often if it works for them. But to be most effective, you want to take the medication once daily. Um, and I love to say to people, try it with another option. So when we think of birth control, we want to say, okay, you want to take your birth control method and a condom if you want to prevent pregnancy. So your prep medication and a condom, and that would definitely prevent you against HIV transmission.
SPEAKER_00Right. That increases the protection, right? So another myth that I was gonna touch on is a lot of folks think, okay, I'm on prep, I can rock dog till the day is through. Yeah. Yeah. You can do whatever you want with your body, but if you want to be most protected, yeah, most protective. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Double that. Yeah, not double the condom, but double double your preventative method.
SPEAKER_00Let's clarify. Okay, please don't double your condoms. Please don't do that. Now, this last myth that I want to touch on. Thank you so much for um talking about, you know, the two before, if your you know, sexual activity isn't consistent, two before, one day of two after. Yeah, did I get that correct?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh two, the day of, one after, and then one after that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00One after, one after, yes. Some folks think, okay, if I miss a day, I'm good. I just got to double up.
SPEAKER_02Um, there's no need to double up. Just just do the one day after. Yeah. It won't, it won't change what you did before. It won't auto correct it.
SPEAKER_00If we could give you all that foundational knowledge. So, what did we hit on? You don't need to double up if you miss a day. The half-life really only lasts for a day, which is why you need to take it consistently. If you want to protect yourself even more, prep plus condoms work. And do not double up your condoms, that's not gonna work. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so now that we've talked about safety, let's have a little fun. Yeah. So the theme of this season is exploring sex and pleasure. One thing that I like to acknowledge is that there is pleasure in agency, right? Pleasure in being an autonomous being, in feeling like you can enter and affirm your sexual self. Yeah. And when I talk about agency, I'm really talking about an individual's capacity to act independently, make their own sexual choices, right? Now, one thing that I do with a lot of guests that come on the show is that I put on my Jill Scott hat or my Anika Noni Rose hat and I play number one ladies detective agency. Do you remember that show from H?
SPEAKER_02Yes, I do. Oh my goodness, yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Could I say justice for number one ladies detective agency? Because they stopped it abruptly and we needed to come back. Okay. But I like to do some kind of recon on the folks that I have on the show just to make the shore more fun. And one thing that I did when I did my research on you was I found out that you did this event in 2019, and the event was called Reclaiming Sexual Agency as Fat Non-Med.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know where I was in 2019, but I should have been down to the to the event during a time when I identified as non-binary, right? So what inspired you to create this event?
SPEAKER_02So it actually was uh a friend who uh suggested or passed along the information. Um so there was a university in Philadelphia, that's where I'm from. Um, and they were looking for someone to speak um about the topic and and provide some information for their um gender studies program, essentially. Um and it was just gonna be like a little, I guess, small get together to talk about it. Um and so they wanted a person of color to lead this uh presentation and they uh reached out to this person, they asked, like, you know, do you have any um recommendations? And then she passed it along to me, and then it just kind of worked out that way where we could uh work on something together. And so um, yeah, I kind of just talked about uh me being a fat black woman and what does um me reclaiming sexual agency look like. And it was fun.
SPEAKER_00If you could take us back to 2019, only if you feel comfortable, yeah, what does that look like?
SPEAKER_02It looks like me taking up space, and that's what I literally called the the topic or the the conversation essentially, just me being there um and reclaiming the fact that I have full power in being who I am, and that's fine, and that I can be me and I can show up as me and not feel a way about that at all. Um, I feel like there's so many, there's so many messages and things that profit off us hating ourselves, um, not loving who we are and what we can be in our potential. And I decided to do a radical thing and just say that, you know, fuck all of y'all, fuck that. And I'm just gonna love myself and that's gonna be fine. And so it looked like me like loving and caring for myself in a way that I had never done before, um, and really taking space. Um, because for a very long time, um, and I've always been fat my life, you know, I've never been anything different. Um, but for a while, I've always been told that I needed to do things to contort myself and make myself smaller and take up less space because of what I look like on the outside. And I told myself I'm not gonna do that anymore. And so it was just really just a love letter to myself and the audacity of me saying that to myself and just kind of letting people see that out loud, and then let's have a conversation about it.
SPEAKER_00I kind of have to sit with that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, go ahead. It's a thing that I constantly have to sit with myself about too. It I say this now as somebody who feels very confident in who I am, but there are days where I have my moments where I don't feel that way. Yes. Go back to that and remind myself, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00And I appreciate you using words to describe it like radical or having the audacity to take up space. Because one thing, and the reason why I said I have to sit with that, one thing that I've been reflecting on with myself for, and it's so timely that this is happening for the past couple of days, actually, is how even though I am, I exaggerate and say I'm like this 6'10, one-ton man, right, with a personality to match, right? My personality is just as big as my frame. There is something sometimes that has been internalized where depending on the space I'm in, I'll notice and catch myself shrinking, right? Or not trying to take up that space, right? And I find that that those judgments are not on, they're not only on some like woo-woo level, like you're you're shrinking yourself, like have more confidence, but even in the ways that like I judge and appraise my body, right? I feel like if only I was just a little smaller, if only I was a little more sucked in, you know, I'm I struggle sometimes with my internalized fat phobia. And it's like, okay, sometimes when my ass looks good and my thighs look good, oh you thick, right? But if the stomach matched the thighs and ass, oh, you're doing too much.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you gotta suck it in and do something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so to kind of reframe and detach yourself from those judgments to get to a place of confidence, that is such a radical act. How what were the steps that you took to get to that place? What does reclaiming your agency or even getting to a place of that confidence? What does that look like?
SPEAKER_02It it looked like for me in the beginning, um changing some things. Um, so it it first looked like for me to change what I what I saw because okay, I open up my social media and I just see this and I see a lot of that. So kind of reshifting that. I am, you know, taking people off my timeline that I don't want to see and adding more people there because I want to see this. I wanna I wanna see it. I want to understand that this is something that I can do, I can be, and it's okay to be, um, and that I don't need to conform to whatever anybody else is saying that is there. So um it took me understanding that representation matters, I guess. And so allowing me to kind of see myself in other people and be okay with that. And so if that means that I need to follow these people or look at this account or um kind of fill my space with these things, then let that happen. Um, then it took me to do some what I call squishy shit, essentially, and some stuff that makes me uncomfortable, uh essentially. And so that took me doing things like signing up for pole dancing classes and yeah, bitch, I'm gonna come in there with a bra and these short ass shorts on. I know that's not the only fat bitch in this class and still drop it down just like everybody else. And if I gotta do whatever it takes to me to get on this poll, I'm gonna do it, and that's fine, and not feel away about myself or compare myself to other people because I've been so used to doing that. Compare myself to other people and their experience and their bodies because I don't need to do that anymore. I'm me and myself, and I I I love the way I look and I'm okay with that, you know. Um, and and it took even more squishy shit, like me going in a bikini to a beach, you know, and that's that's fine. I'm okay with that, and I love it. And I'm not even gonna worry about if anybody's staring at me because bitch, why would you not stare at all this? You know?
SPEAKER_00Come on with that reframe. And you know, you're taking me really, and I love how these conversations always kind of relate back to the beginning. In the beginning, when we were talking about holding space for the fact that we don't know how to navigate this current time, right? And realizing that it sounds really good, but the process is hard, right? I'm hearing you say all of the things that you're doing, getting into the squishy shit, right? And that sounds so good, but I know the process is hard, right? And I think about even showing up as a black gay man in the black gay community. There's someone I want to have a conversation in this season with a little later. But, you know, when I think about the porn that I watch, the men, some of the men that I'm attracted to, you know, I don't got no type, right? So you can give me the skinny man with everything that comes with skinny men, and you can give me, you know, the big teddy bear. And I love that too. But it shows you how insidious that fat phobia is and how tricky that hoe can be, right? Because while I love it on the external, when it comes to my neighborhood, for me, I'm like, that's where things start to get uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah. I think also having those conversations centered around that. I've been having a lot of conversations with um women um that you know are in my circle and everything, just about our bodies. Um, and and just understanding that just because you look a certain way doesn't mean that you necessarily feel a certain way about yourself. Um, and and and understanding that, and a lot of a lot of my friends would say, like, oh, you you do have this like confidence. And I was like, I think I've just understood the fact that like I'm fat and so what? Like it's not that big of a damn deal. It's not at all, you know, and and and just saying that. And I think also tying into some of the stuff that I've talked about before, me as a fat person and entering into health spaces too, it it was a struggle for me. But I think I consciously am talking about like I can be a fat person, I can still be healthy, you know, it's not a it doesn't mean that I am um I don't care about myself or I don't take care of myself, you know, at all. Like that that that's not synonymous at all with me being fat and me staying very firm in that. And so all the like, you know, work that I do to kind of affirm and uplift other people, you know, to to advocate for who they are. I, you know, I have to do that for myself. I have to pour back into myself with that all the time.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for highlighting the professional link too. You're really messing me up out here because yes, there is a stigma of, you know, working in health and looking a certain way, right? Let's flip it. There's a stigma like. In working in sexuality, right? If you work in sexuality, people are expecting you, you know, titties out ass up, you know, like fitting kind of that normal trope of what sexy looks like. And this is why that word radical is so important because it is such a radical work to be like, nah, I identify as a cis man. I'm still gonna give you this chest, I'm still gonna give you this tummy, I'm gonna give you this ass. And this is still sexy.
SPEAKER_02Yes, absolutely. And I think the last and final piece for myself is just making sure, because I have a lot of internal talking going on in my head. I'm a Gemini. I talk all the time. I talk a lot, I talk to myself. Yeah, it's just a lot of that going on. And so I think for me, it's been a lot of kind of that inner talk, you know, to myself. Um, we talk a lot about, you know, healing our inner child. And I think about that inner voice that I have is rooted in a lot of my upbringing and the folks around me who kind of said things and how I'm trying to radically like reshift and reprogram my mind to thinking very differently about it. Um, and that has been, I feel like the final piece that I'm still kind of like trying to grasp. But um it's yeah, it's a work in progress, but it's it's getting to a place where I'm feeling much better.
SPEAKER_00I love that for you. And I love that for me. And I love that for anyone else who's listening who's going through the same journey. Okay. Now, one thing I couldn't let go, which I kind of live for, is that when you had that event in 2019, you specifically said no men allowed. What was the intention behind that?
SPEAKER_02I actually didn't. I really was hoping that men would show up. Um, I don't know if this university, the way that they advertised it was specifically for women, because only women did show up. Um, but I was hoping that there would it be a mixed crowd. I wanted to see uh it was mostly actually all cis hetero women. I wanted to see a variety of people because I feel like this we all have bodies, we all have these feelings about our bodies. But I think anybody can benefit from it, even you know, hearing it from a a black woman, you know, it I think we all could benefit from hearing something. Who knows?
SPEAKER_00And you know, once outside opens up, you know, fully, I could be able to put it on and do a part two, more yeah, inclusive and yeah, and I think it's so funny because you know that those who identify as men are having these same issues, right? If you don't have the six-pack, if you don't have the chest, if you don't have, you know, the calves, there's some body issues around that, and not just with being fat, but also being too skinny. And oftentimes I think with those who identify as women, it may come out as clear body dysmorphia or clear feeling, negative feelings around the body. But with men, we may attach it to other things like comedy, right? Or we may do other things to kind of shield that hurt that we actually feel around our bodies, that confusion that those negative feelings we may feel around our frame. And so it would be so great to have conversations of how you know body is also tied to masculinity and how we navigate those two things.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Jasmine, I want to thank you for being on here. Okay. And I would love for you to complete this sentence. Pleasure is.
SPEAKER_02Um I feel like at this time, pleasure is indispensable. I think it's it's something very vital for me at this point. And I've been learning to kind of understand the balance of things in life. So yeah, it's it's something that I needed to kind of focus on a lot during this rough time in our lives.
SPEAKER_00And we can hold that right there. Pleasure is indispensable. I know that's right. Well, again, I want to thank you so much for just sharing so much of yourself, the different knowledge that you have, the different aspects of knowledge that you have. And so I have spent more than an hour, it feels like, maybe even close to it, asking you question after question after question. Now we are going to move into a section of the show called Let's Spin the Rose Bottle. And so, as a thank you for asking, for answering so many questions that I asked, you get to ask me one question, and I have to provide an answer.
SPEAKER_02Okay, as I sit my rose. Okay, so I've thought about this um because I've listened to podcasts, obviously. Oh, thank you. I really like to understand people. Um, and I think I've been on this journey to kind of like understand more about people and and how what it is that makes this person who I'm kind of sitting in front of today. So it's kind of a two-part question, but feel free to answer it how you like. Um, what is it that you think people seldom properly understand about you? And like what does that taught you about navigating the world?
SPEAKER_00Maybe this comes from therapy.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00I do a really great job of showing up for people. Okay. I do a really great job of being on. Yeah. And I think what people seldom understand is that sometimes, and they may get it like when I turn into my Lindsay Lohan, like when I'm drunk and things starts filling out. But I think what people seldom understand is that underneath, you know, the consistency and showing up and being dependable and you know, being that person you can come to when you're feeling down, and you know, I can pick your spirits up. I also have my own struggles. And one of those struggles, I was dang, timely. I was talking about it today. Was this, I don't know where it came from, but sometimes I feel like there's this need for me to always be connected, right? And always be in the inn and always be uh wanted, accepted in certain spaces, even spaces that I know I've either outgrown, don't have the capacity to deal with me, I don't need to be there. Yeah. Spaces that have dishonored me. I feel like there is a draw to exist in those in those spaces. Right. What has that taught me, or how has that shaped my navigation of the world? I think it's created a deeper responsibility. A deeper responsibility I have to myself, right? To acknowledge that space, to acknowledge those spaces for what they are, right? To acknowledge that, hey, you're having this anxiety around do you belong? Maybe you don't belong. And it doesn't necessarily mean you don't belong because you're not qualified to be in that space. You maybe don't belong because that space isn't healthy for you. Those people aren't healthy for you. You may not belong because you've outgrown that space. You may not belong for a plethora of reasons, and you don't have to internalize that as that is a deficit for me. There is no slight on you for not being able to maintain your position or your connection there. That doesn't make you less of a nurturer or less of a being. Thank you for that.
SPEAKER_02Thank you. I appreciate that. You go in there with me.
SPEAKER_00I feel good. I'm not gonna lie. I came in a little tired because I had just, you know, done things that were tiring. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, Monday, right? You're off the weekend.
SPEAKER_00So yes. But this really revived my spirit. And so I'm glad. I hope it revived yours too. But I'm tippy. I mean and I'm jealous, okay? Over a month of no alcohol. But I thank you so much for coming on. Where can the people find you? Social medias, websites, you know, phone number. Well, don't put your phone number on YouTube, wherever.
SPEAKER_02You can find me on uh Instagram and Twitter. I'm uh Jasmine Boyd, that's J-A-Z-Z-M-I-N, Boyd B-O-Y-D underscore um on all the little socials and everything. Um, I'll probably be putting out some more stuff. I have a love-hate relationship with social media. And I feel like part of my um, you know, comparing myself to other people, I feel like I I need to be doing more, but I've been trying to uh get to a space for myself where I feel very comfortable in the fact that I can post when I want to post and what I want to post. And that's fine. And so I am looking to kind of be more engaging on social media though, because I understand that it's a tool. And as any tool, you want to use it to, you know, effectively help you, and in whatever case. So I am planning on doing more work on there. So feel free to follow me on there and hopefully you'll see some more great stuff, or at least you'll see me more in more bikinis, whatever.
SPEAKER_00I know that's right. Okay.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_00Y'all, this has been another episode. Jasmine, thank you again. Thank you again. This has been another episode of the Rose and Thorns podcast. Bye. Thank you for listening to Rose and Thorns, a P Ryan podcast. You can find Rose and Thorns on Instagram and Twitter at Rose and T Pod. That's R-O-S-E-N-T-O-P-O-D. And you can find P Ryan on Instagram and Twitter at I-M-P-Ryan. That's I-A-M-O-P-R-Y-A-N.