Rosé + Thorns
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Rosé + Thorns
Surrender (feat. @dalychia)
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Are you engaged in orgasmic living? On this episode of the Rosé + Thorns podcast, P. Ryan sits with Afrosexology co-founder Dalychia and explores various themes related to their life to date. The two then explore the facts of orgasmic living and openly surrendering to life. Enjoy!
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You know, we want to be, we we want to be great, and that greatness keeps pushing us to like growth. And growth is hard, you know, but we're doing it.
unknownYou ready?
SPEAKER_00Roseanne Thorne. Hey Love Bugs, and welcome to another episode of the Roseanne Thorns podcast. I am P Ryan, and I am here with a writer, a full-time daydreamer, a crybaby, and a lover. She is a professor and co-creator of Afroflexology. Everyone, welcome. Delita saw.
SPEAKER_05Hi, Catholic.
SPEAKER_00Hi. So excited to have you on.
SPEAKER_04Hey, I'm excited to be here and be talking with you.
SPEAKER_00Before we start this conversation at all, how's your heart? How are you entering this space? And you know, we're we're down to COVID. We thought we were post-COVID, but we're right back in it. So how is your heart in this season? And who are you, what are you learning about yourself as we navigate COVID?
SPEAKER_04Okay. All right. Love the questions from the drum. My heart feels pretty open.
SPEAKER_03I feel yeah, I feel pretty um committed right now to like loving more and opening and softening parts of myself. So I it's been a pretty raw and tender feeling, but it's been feeling really good. So my heart feels really grateful to be talking with you and really open right now in this season.
SPEAKER_04And I am I miss I miss traveling, I miss my community, I miss seeing people, I miss my hugs, you know.
SPEAKER_03I just miss people's energy. But I will say that being in the house has actually been really good for me. And so my anxiety is lower, my self-care is up, I'm sleeping eight hours, I'm drinking water, you know, baby is caring for herself. So it's been it's been good. And as I'm in this stage right now, COVID is teaching me to slow down and to really reassess where I'm putting my energy, and it has brought me to recommitting to some parts of myself that I continuously put on the on the back burner because the world is so busy and my schedule is so full. And as I've been nurturing those parts of myself, it's been bringing up a lot of um a lot of shadows, you know, a lot of things within me that I have ignored for a really long time and and habits that have I've built up as survival skills that are now keeping me from, you know, doing some of the work that I want to do, like overthinking, procrastinating, self-doubt. So COVID is really, I don't want to say COVID like the thing, but the period of quarantine and being indoors that we're in, it's really creating space for me to learn to relearn myself, re-engage with myself, trust myself, um and to create more and to care for myself more. So it's been a a roller coaster of emotions. And I feel a lot of them. But it's been really, really it's been it's felt like a coming home, you know. So it's been nice.
SPEAKER_00And what I'm hearing is that, you know, you're able to relearn, reunderstand yourself by increasing awareness, right? So like increasing awareness of the things that you kind of fucked me up, the things that helped you survive, but are kind of no longer serving you.
SPEAKER_04I had an elder once tell me the things that helped you survive as a kid will oftentimes kill you as an adult. They're killing us.
SPEAKER_03There are some habits that this uh firstborn oldest daughter of immigrant parents, you know, habits I have picked up, um, are really caring for everyone else. And uh yeah, they're like, for example, I've just recently realized that my whole nature of overthinking is because like I was responsible for all these kids.
SPEAKER_02You have to balance 10 plates, yeah. So I had to overthink what anybody gonna need, what they're gonna do, and and I'm still doing that.
SPEAKER_03And that helped me to like, you know, do what I need to do for my parents who were like working so much. But now I find myself just over, overthinking everything, everything, and not trusting my own gut sometimes, you know.
SPEAKER_00So absolutely, yeah. For me, I think, you know, just pulling from this idea of overthinking, I'm I find myself looking for the things that are safe, right? That has been a way that I've survived. And, you know, we talk about this off air so many times, being creative. You can't play it safe, or you're not gonna get nowhere. And so this weird space I'm in, you know, quarantine has made me confront this idea of like, all right, you want to do XYZ, but you want to play it safe. The twin will work out.
SPEAKER_02I want to do the math, right? Have you seen that question? No, I have not, but you just gave me a really funny version of it. So you know I'm off the internet these days.
SPEAKER_00Oh, thank you for that. Even in the beginning of the show. Let's take a moment and just even talk about how we met. How did we meet? We were down to the washiu in St. Louis. We were, we were. But do you remember the first moment we connected?
SPEAKER_04No, I'm gonna say a chicken a hennesy party, but weren't you still in the chicken hennesy parties? I was. So I'm assuming it was before that. I don't know.
SPEAKER_03I mean, I honestly, we was in a program that did not have many black people, and I felt like the black people just gravitated towards each other. I think it was just like you black, I'm black, let's let's do it. And the group of us that formed just kind of kept hanging out, and some of us have become like lifelong friends.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And that's the thing too, yeah. Like sometimes when those environments bring folks together, those relationships don't always last. But one thing that I'm so grateful for is you. Like, yes, we started off Kiki and down to the chicken and hennesy party. Shout out to me. I used to be a really fun girl.
SPEAKER_02You still are. I'm still a fun girl. Oh, cool. We got some trips coming up. Let's go get herself together.
SPEAKER_00Fun times, chicken and hennesy, fun times. We had little Taco Bell runs, wine and Chinese food. But it wasn't just drinking, eating, and being married. When I think about the times I was on your couch talking about the risk and reward of affirming my my sexual identity in different spaces. When we when I think about, you know, the niggas who weren't acting right down to St. Louis. Yeah, when I think about the niggas who weren't acting right after St. Louis. Right. And I don't want to just like present that your our relationship is based on like you holding space for me and doing a whole bunch of labor, but just like who you are, your presence, your confidence, your creativity, the things that you just set your mind to. You're just an inspiration. I'm so glad to have you be like friend who is family. You oh, I love you. You're everything.
SPEAKER_03So what the people don't know is that uh me and Patrick are soulmates and we live the same life. And so our journeys and our paths have just like been so aligned over the past almost decade at this point. And we have been such a support system and an inspiration for each other, encouragement, cheerleader. We have created spaces. What do we call them? No judgment, no judgment, where we just say what we gotta say and we don't judge each other. So, like everything you are giving and saying is a reflection of what you give to me and who you are. And I am so grateful that we are friends and we're talking today on your podcast because you've got so many things you'd be creating, and this is one of them.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And as you mentioned, you know, our lives kind of take the same path. You recently cut your hair, so now we basically twins. Okay. Ball bad. You got a little bit more hair than me, but still, we kind of twins, right? So we connect on life situations, background, hair, glasses. But one of the things that we connect on also is our love for the queen, the Houston queen, the world queen. Okay. Beyonce Giselle knows Carter.
SPEAKER_04All right.
SPEAKER_00Recently in 2021, because we're in 22, she did a Harper's Bazaar interview and really just took us on a journey through like various themes in her life, going from the early years, her 20s, her 30s, and now she, I think she's 40, close to it. Mm-hmm. Okay. And so to honor Beyonce, to honor the doll and all that she has given us, I wanted to kind of recreate that in this space with you and help people get to know you. You are a co-creator of Afro Sexology. Um, but you know, I love little moments where people can get to know the creator of this like huge thing, right? Or one of the creators of this huge thing. And so let's take a walk through the years and just kind of explore what those years were for you. Yeah. Okay. And so let's start off at the early years, birth to like age 10, the first decade. What was it like for you? What do you remember that moment, though those years being like?
SPEAKER_04I yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I will say I I know I was a kid with really big feelings and had parents who were navigating a lot, relocating to a new country after leaving a civil war in their country. It was a lot going on for them. And so um didn't necessarily have the time to cater to all of my emotions, which is like now why I I reclaimed the term crybaby because I was like called a car baby a lot and told that people are gonna think I'm weak um and take advantage of me. And so I have to like cover that up. And so I know I had a lot of emotions. I know I talked a lot, and I still do, and my parents just had a lot going on, so I know that was present, and I am learning to I don't know, reconnect with that side of me now and just like give space to the emotions and to cry a lot and to like allow myself to just be the talker that I am. I also know remembered that my childhood, early childhood was like super fun because I was raised in a community with a lot of a lot of Liberian immigrants, and my grandmother used to pretty much take care of almost everyone's kids. Like everyone would like drop their kids off like early in the morning, go to work. She would get us all ready for school, take us to uh like feet us, take us to the bus stop, and then after school we would all go over there. So I remember my childhood being like road rats. It was just like 10 kids, my cousins, my friends, like always there. My grandmother was like really, really chill, but she raised a bunch, she raised like eight kids. So she she knew how to handle us, and she also was kind of hands off. So we were always an adventure, we were always in trouble kind of situations, but like not in trouble, but like just having adventures and doing what kids do. And we would be outside and we would ride our bikes a lot because she lived on the code de sac, so like everyone in the neighborhood would be over there, and it was just like really, really fun. And we would be there until like eight or nine when our parents would come pick us up like every night. So that was a lot, a lot of fun. And I also I often tell my mom that she was an amazing mother for like a young child. Like she, my mom is like really, she's really um, I don't what is the word I'm looking for? I don't know. She like like loves like Scooby-Doo and like Mickey Mouse and like likes to put on plates, and so she would be the parent to like go and pick up all of my friends and bring them to the house, and we would have like game nights, and she would, you know, so she liked crafts and we would bake things and make donuts. So when we became teenagers, she didn't know what to do with us. But when we were young ones, like it was just really it was it was a lot of fun. So I remember that a lot, and then the other thing was just like church, you know. We had we were a very religious family. We went to about two, three churches every Sunday. Every Sunday, we had the white church, we had a black American church, and we had a West African church. Um, so all day Sunday was church day, and summers was vacation Bible schools, about like four to six of them, and uh reading a lot of scriptures. So there was a lot of a lot of church.
SPEAKER_04And I think that sums up a lot of the I was uh I was I I read books, um, I did a lot of roller skating.
SPEAKER_03I had a lot of crushes. I I recently found my earlier childhood diary, and I was I was very bored crazy. I've always been boring crazy, and uh a lot of crushes, even at that young age.
SPEAKER_00As you're telling this story, I think of just like, you know, we grow, our bodies change, our minds change, we kind of adapt to this world, but there are certain threads of us that don't leave. They don't. And so I'm hearing you, you know, being like a rug rat when you were little, adventuring, um, having a mother who kind of instilled play, you know, being a person who played, right? And was carefree. Girl, that's who you are now. Oh, thank you. Yeah, thank you for that reflection. So even though, you know, we talked about kind of being confronted with things in quarantine, look at the things that have just like stuck with you. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_04I really feel like I love that question. Bring it back to me.
SPEAKER_03Um, I really do think that the older, I feel like the older I get, the more I am just returning to my childhood self, honestly. And I'm learning the ways that I've been taught that those parts of myself were childish, were inappropriate, were immature, were like I was supposed to leave it alone, like playing, right? Like we're supposed to like leave playing alone as we get older, but I'm finding myself now creating more space to play and really enjoying that. So it does feel good to feel like I'm just returning to myself more than I am um becoming someone new. It just feels like a remembering.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I, you know, as you're sharing your story, I'm also thinking about some of the things that shaped my birth to 10. And, you know, in the work that I do, in the podcast that I've been on, oftentimes it's like homonegativity, right? Trauma, trauma, trauma. We can hold space for that. And I think there have been other things that have shaped, you know, my birth to 10, my teenage, and even my after year. So I think birth to 10, one of the stories that I've always heard growing up was that everybody knew I was going to sing because I would not stop crying. Right. Like if I was away from my mother, like I would just burst out into tears and be like, help. Okay.
SPEAKER_04You would say no, you would say no for no five minutes.
SPEAKER_00But even though they associate that with me away. You know what I associate that with? Being clear on what I want. Even as a baby, I didn't want y'all. Okay. I wanted my body, right? And so as I get older, whenever I've had discord, whenever I've had moments of tension, whenever there have been blow ups, at the core, it's been because I knew what I want. I knew what I was not getting. Right. Yeah. And I knew that there needed to be a change.
SPEAKER_04Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think it was. Yeah. So moving forward, I'm like, gotta be clear on what I want and go after that. Yeah. Yeah. I remember like early years. You mentioned being boy crazy. I will never forget being either down to the kindergarten or the first grade and seeing one of my friends' dads and being like, wow. He was a handsome man.
SPEAKER_02Your friend's dad's talking. You did all this shipping. Oh, your time, you have known your time since my baby. Clarity. Clarity threw it through.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00So whatever threads that are bringing up now, I'll leave it to y'all to figure out. Okay. Yeah. Play, fun, love, knowing what I want, all of those things are consistent.
SPEAKER_02Consistency.
SPEAKER_00Now let's go into the teen years. You mentioned that you had some journals and you are able to take trips down memory lane. What were them teen years like? I know they can studying psychology. There is some stress theories out there. There's one theory, it doesn't have a lot of basis in it, but it says that all adolescents go through this moment of just trial and tribulation. I would love to hear about your teen years.
SPEAKER_04Oh my God. I you cannot pay me to go back. You can't, you can't do that for me. Okay. I was so uncomfortable in my body. Like, oh my God.
SPEAKER_03Puberty did me right, but also like I just wasn't ready for it. Like this ass was just not, I wasn't ready for it. And like the the changes, and like really the changes and how everyone else started acting around me, right? So there's this one period, especially because like physical touch is my love language. So there's one part of your life where it's okay to go sit on people's laps, it's okay to hug people, and then all of a sudden nobody tells you why. But you can't sit on people's laps, you can't touch people, people are yelling at you to like hug people from the side. I'm like, what? The one-handed church hug, I learned that it was just a lot, and it also attracted a lot of unwanted attention, like creepy, like people start hugging you a bit longer, talk like grown men talking about like, man, you you're really growing up, just like weird things. So I look back at middle school almost to the end of high school, and I really was like wearing like oversized clothes, like so much to like drown and hide my body because the way that it was being um seen and reacted to was just did not feel good. And I also like the narrative was never putting the responsibility on other people. It felt like the women in my family was putting the responsibility on me. And so it was like if I'm doing something to attract this attention and like for people to start treating me differently. So I was really uncomfortable in my body. I hid it a lot, I shrunk. Like that is like, you know, I was like as a kid, I was so talkative and I was, you know, but like as I got a teenager, like I became more quiet. I like really just like shrunk in into myself and tried to be invisible because I really didn't know what to do with the visibility that I was, you know, that I was, I guess, uh receiving because of their changes in my body. So I really did not enjoy. And also my my family valued beauty or valued brains over beauty, and now I understand I don't have to make a choice. But like then, you know, so I really like dug my head into books. I I really just like was a quiet kid reading a lot, studying a lot for school, and just minding my business. But I will also say that as I look back, I have because you know, I'm still boycrazy, so I'm still dating. Um, and I had some experiences that I look back and I'm like, oh, I was like polyam, polyamorous in the beginning. So I'm able to like look back and to see like the guy I was dating at 16. I remember meeting somebody else and then telling him, like, I kind of want to make out with this guy. Like, and I don't some like I want to, I guess I was thinking like not cheat on you, but you know, we're 16, we're in love, we're like, we're gonna be together forever. And I'm like, well, I need more experiences because I can't just have this feeling be dead for life, because that was the logic I had then that this was it for me. And I told him that I met this other guy and I wanted to, you know, make out with him, but not sex or relationship just to kiss him, and that threw into a you don't love me, you gonna cheat on me, and like whole thing that like really ended that relationship. Um, and so I so I had a situation like that. I had a situation when I was dating this other guy, and he was like consoling one of his like friends who was a woman, and she like kissed him, and he was so afraid to tell me, and he was just like, I didn't do anything to this, and I was just like, It's cool, like I get it. Like, she was she was down, he was there, these things happened, and then I was the one, like, why wasn't I jealous that it was a situation because I wasn't jealous and I should have felt felt more insecure and jealous about it. So I'm able to look back at some of those and be like, oh man, like not only was my crushes um very close together and overlapping, which showed me that I had the capacity to be uh enamored with more than one percent of time, but also in these relationships, I had these situations where I just didn't see it as a problem to have multiple people or to have, I don't know, these situations happen. It wasn't a problem for me that it was for other people. I didn't understand polyamory than I know it was a thing. So I definitely took that as like this is not okay. This is not appropriate. My friends told me that I was uh cold hearted because I moved on too quickly from breakups and um. You know, so things like that. So I definitely learned, like, oh, this part of myself is not okay. But as I'm looking back now, I'm like, okay, you know, I was, I had my signs, I knew who I was. Um, and then I would say the other thing that I feel grateful for in my teenage years is that I really was raised by dreamers. Both my parents are like really big dream people and have had like amazing, amazing lives and have done so much. And so there was a lot of moments, but I remember in like uh late teen years, I wanted to start a clothing line with a friend, and my mom was like, do it, and she was our investor, and she would like drive us, like go find tailors and define cloth. And so I remember like I don't think after sexology like would have been the thing that it was if I wasn't so used to like having a mother and a father who were very much like if you want something, go for it and do it and try.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's take things slow, right? Yeah. A couple of things that you hit on. I made myself invisible because I couldn't handle the visibility due to the ways that people reacted to it. Knowing what I know of you, I can only imagine that even in your attempts to be invisible, folks still saw you.
SPEAKER_05Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_00And I'm so curious as to how you handled that power. Even though you say you you didn't know how to handle it, you tried to make efforts to be invisible. Were there ever moments where you had an inkling of, oh, I might be that girl? Or even though I'm my head is in a book, I'm still able to attract X, Y, Z. How did you handle that? How did you navigate that?
SPEAKER_03I don't I don't think I recognized it as power. I don't think I like I uh saw it as that. I don't think I enjoyed attention and yeah. Well, I feel like when I was younger, if I got attention, I was either one like if it was attention from somebody who I I guess liked or thought was cool or you know, popular, whatever, I was I went along with it. And I and I think I ended up with some partners, not because I liked them, but because they liked me and I liked that they liked me, you know. Um, or I felt like I just like ran away from attention and like just kind of hid more. And um I don't know, I would say mid to older teens, I definitely was trying to embrace it more and to play with it and to like own it. But I think I interpreted some of the attention I got as just like pressure to like maintain a particular image as I got more into like, okay, this is the body, so I have to like dress it a certain way to like make it look, I don't know, more grown or um thinking that it was cooler that older guys were like into me instead of being like, yeah, you know, there probably were creeps, they probably were some creeps, you know. So yeah, so I don't, I don't really feel like I I feel like I handled it the best way I could. I definitely will say I had some great instincts and my intuition was strong. And so there's a lot of situations that I avoided because I like had that feeling in me that was like, this don't feel right, and I trusted that. Um but I also feel like there was probably some things that I missed out on because I was too afraid to like come out of my shell a bit more.
SPEAKER_00Same girl, same you know, this piece of being invisible because you couldn't handle the visibility that you were given, or you know, you couldn't handle the things that like not even that you couldn't handle, but it felt so uncomfortable when folks would put things on you, right? Make you responsible for how they're receiving you essentially. Yeah. That really resonated with me. And as I think back to like my high school space as well, like, dang, if I only had let that go, how much more fun would I have had? Or like what would life have had been like during those times? But while we took on some people's stuff, I also hear that like just based on how you're wired, you also gave people back their stuff, right? And so showing up authentically in relationships, understanding that, like, oh, I'm with you, but I want to kiss that person over there, right? Or, oh, you kissed that person while you were consoling them. Oh, I get it, right? It's like you were actively giving people back their discomfort.
SPEAKER_04Hmm. Okay. Okay, reflections. I appreciate that.
SPEAKER_03Um, yeah, no, I I do think there was there was a uh part of me that that I understood, especially I think around so the guys that I was dating that I was like, this is this is not my problem. That you were uncomfortable with these situations or that like you feel like I should be more jealous. Um I I was I was clear enough to not let it change me, you know, which I think is important. I don't think I had the the full understanding of like why I thought it was weird. I just knew I was like, that's just weird, I'm not doing that, you know. But I yeah, so I I appreciate that because it helps me to see helps me to see that there was a lot of power in those teen years, even though I felt very powerless in a lot of ways, and I felt um very invisible that there was still a sense of like knowing of myself and a sense of fidelity to myself.
SPEAKER_04And I think I yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And as I reflect that to you, I'm kind of like feeling something in my chest because I'm reflecting it to me, because it's like, you know, in the plainest of terms, nigga don't niggas don't dim what's not shining or don't try to dim what's not shining, right?
SPEAKER_04Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay, yes, I feel you. I feel you. I hope that makes sense.
SPEAKER_00I'm like having an internal conversation while I'm like, what's happening inside of you? Yeah. To hear you say that there were moments where you were like, that's not my problem. Right. And to hear you say that you kind of just like and I'm paraphrasing, but like you showed up as you were. I think that's also how I showed up in my teen years. Right. Regardless of the feedback, regardless of like, you know, the stuff that we would classify as like trauma, small t, little t, whatever. I was just, you know, I showed up as that girl, right? And that did, and I didn't allow that to change. And I think that's what struck me from what you said too. I didn't allow how others thought about me to change who I was.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that.
SPEAKER_03There was a level of authenticity, even though teenage is a time up trying to like, you know, fit in and change. There was a way that I still um held on to myself and my core. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Can we just pat our team selves on the back? You did that.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes. That's so that was so beautiful because I feel like I'm oftentimes saying that my younger version would be so proud of who I am now. But I think it's really beautiful to think about how I'm really proud of my younger self. Those are some hard years. You know, those are some hard years.
SPEAKER_00Um, just pulling from the conversation in the beginning. Yes, we survived, but look at so many of the ways that our teen selves thrived.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. I don't know about you. I had like this like weight chain story, right? I I went from being this invisible girl in like early middle school to being, you know, this person who did command attention and presence in high school. Yeah. So yeah, there was a piece of survival there. There was a piece of overcoming, you know, negative feedback in different spaces, but there was also this piece of like undeniable she's here.
SPEAKER_05I love that.
SPEAKER_00From the teens to the 20s. Yeah. That was a time where we connected.
SPEAKER_05Now yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was the time. Okay.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Let's talk about that. That's like at the end of undergrad, that's intergrad school, that's after grad school, the most recent times, now that we've just turned 30. What was that like for you?
SPEAKER_03Um, I will say 20s, especially early 20s was when I really got into my I don't know, I guess the best way to call it is like activism type work because I was my undergrad. Shout out to Bailey University, hated it, the entire experience.
SPEAKER_04Um, was really, really oppressive. Like I, you know, I'm from Texas, I'm from Houston.
SPEAKER_03So I knew there was like racist white people, but everybody was cool, pretty much in Houston. And then I went to Waco, Texas, and I was like, oh no, y'all for real, for real racist, you know. So my college um had mooses on campus when Obama got elected. It was in the New York Times as the most homophobic um college in the US. They would throw rocks at queer students. I had professors who would use the the Bible to like defend slavery in class. Like it was, it was a wild time. So that was a time when I was like, oh, y'all are y'all are currently, y'all are currently racist. I just thought this was like older generations, like who were just dying, but y'all are currently. Um, and so that really I ended up in social work because I was like, where's the most liberal place on this campus? Because this ain't it. You know, my parents sent me there thinking they were gonna trick me into becoming a prima, and uh got them. Went over to social work, went over to social work, which they were not happy about, but really found my footing as like someone who was like, no, if we want this to change, like we have to talk about this more, we gotta do something about it. And so got learned a lot, learned a lot. And I look back at my early activist days and I cringe at the things that I did, but I'm so grateful for it, that period of myself because I was so loud and wrong, you know, I was so angry.
SPEAKER_04And so the people had to hear it, everyone had to hear it. So that I was the early activist, early 20s.
SPEAKER_03Um, I also 20s is the period where I feel like I really got some true friendships. And I'm so grateful for grad school. I'm so grateful for this, that period of my life where I really, really learned to let go of the ways I had learned to do friends growing up, which was just like, oh, they're they're Liberian, they're black, they're whatever, like you know, so you're friends with them, or you've known them for a long time, or my mom knows your mom. And yeah, and so you were just around people because you felt you had to be like it was out of obligation or just like we're supposed to be friends. And I think 20s, I really got to build community with people who I'm like, oh, like we have similar interests and similar personality styles. And we not only that, but we we show up in a friendship really fully. We show up fully, you know, like it's it's not one-sided. I felt like I had a lot of friendships in my early 20s that was one-sided where I was like, I'm carrying a lot of the load here, or friendships that I was like, this is kind of mean. Like I feel like you're constantly making fun of everyone in the group or me, and I don't like this. And I and I I moved into building friendships that I truly feel loved and supported and have held space for me to be all parts of myself. And so I'm so so grateful for the circle that I have now. And also I took so many risks in my 20s. I like quit my job, I started a business, started um the relationship that I'm in now, you know, therapy. I was just really bold. I was I was really on this journey of carving out a life that aligned with like who I knew myself to be, really, and not like settling for things that made me feel less than in so many ways. So, like the work that I'm doing. I was like, I don't want a job that I feel like I have to like, I don't know, like have to just emotionally drag myself to, and I have to be like trying to um hype up on coffee to be able to sustain myself throughout the day. Like I wanted a place where I could be creative, where I could be my full self, where I could just show up authentically. I wanted friendships that felt that way. I wanted a partnership that felt that way. And so really, really carved out things and took some risk. You know, it's it's really hard when there's a clear path that's been set for you that says, Oh, you want to be successful, this is a job you want to you need to do. Oh, you want a healthy relationship, these are the steps you need to take. So it's and it was really hard for me to say, like, this path that has been laid out is not the one for me. I don't have a clear path forward, but I'm gonna trust the steps that I'm taking along the way. Um, and that felt really scary because I felt like if I quit this job and I end up in this situation, I did this to myself. If I start this polyam relationship, polyamorous relationship and I end up in this situation, I did that to myself. I made these choices, and that level of responsibility felt really scary and daunting, but it felt really great to say, like, I don't know exactly where I'm going, but I trust the steps I'm taking. And I don't know, like when I quit my job, I was like, I don't know what I want to do, but I know how I want to feel, and I feel like I've really built a life that makes me feel alive, and I really enjoy the work that I do, the relationships I'm in. Uh yeah, I there's so many moments when I wake up and I'm like, I can't believe this is my life. Like, I can't believe I get to do this and be with these people and like have these experiences. And even when it's hard and I'm complaining about it, I'm just like, I get to have these complaints. I'm really grateful. You know, like I get to be um, I'm grateful for the problems that I have because the problems that I have are things that I'm like, this is the best situation ever, right? Like the problems I have now is like trying to work through some like childhood stuff that's keeping me from going to the next step, not like the problems of like trying to work with a boss who gets on my nerves and trying having to be uh interact with them on a daily basis, right? So the problems in my relationships are like how do you how do you show up and show love with actions on a deeper level, not like I'm going through your phone because I don't trust you, you know. So I feel like I've taken some steps. I've taken some steps in a right in a direction that wasn't really laid out, and it has it has it has served me well.
SPEAKER_00Taking the risk was the key to your liberation and your livelihood. Your liberation and your living. Because for so many of us, firstborn, first gen, even if you don't have those two labels, but you know, they're pretty heavy labels, right? There is a kind of expected path, right? And if you had kept down that path, you might not have had all of this. And even though you might have had the temptation to kind of experience polyam, to take a risk on job, you might have been like, oh, that's too scary right now. That's not the safe job. But taking those risks in your 20s showed you how vast life could be and how many options are out there, how many things can add to your fulfillment.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_00In my 20s, one life, but it was like 10 lives.
SPEAKER_05I tell you, right?
SPEAKER_00I tell you, early 20s, in undergrad. Wow, undergrad was like I came in as this super conservative, pull yourself up by the bootstraps girl, had a lot of white friends. Okay. Was straight itch. Yeah. Wow. Uh-huh. A different girl. Then somewhere in undergrad, also was super depressed, right? Due to the fact that I was mourning that I was at the University of Maryland for the first two years. I was like grieving that little shit. Then somewhere along the line, end of sophomore year, turned into Lindsay Lohan.
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Could have been just really depressed, right? Or could have been grieving. Then we go to St. Louis. I start saying, why not take a chance on living in your fullness when it comes to sexual orientation? Was actually saying that at the end of Maryland, but all the same. Yeah. Then Mike Brown happens while we're there. Yeah. And a week after I get pulled over by a copy and have the wildest experience in that. And then I'm like, yeah, I could be Caribbean, but we all black.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. What is this?
SPEAKER_00Pull yourself up by the bootstraps. What the fuck is that? Right. Started to question all of these things. Um after grad school, right? Going through the racist institution that is pursuing a doctorate, right? That led to some changes. Dealing with men who were really not available. That led to some changes. Dealing with friends who are not available, that led to changes. Having friends who showed you, hey, them friends are not available because, and you can find that out with the love that we're giving you. Yeah. Different lives in this one life. And I'm so glad that I've lived all these lives because I think that led to my liberation, that led to where I am right now and has made me clear about what I need to move forward in a life that is mine.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I feel like I really appreciate hearing about the particularly the racial identity aspect, because I feel like it's so challenging the conversation that we don't have with a lot of uh, you know, Africans, Caribbeans, uh, Lion X, like black people from throughout the diaspora around this, like claiming our Black identity and not holding on to this narrative of like we're better than we're we're different, we work hard, pull yourself up by the boot shots to recognize that like our struggles are all united. And then yes, I feel I agree. I think the 20s was like so many lifetimes, so much learning and growing.
SPEAKER_04Um, but and you know, I ain't about to put your business out there, but everything you say, I'm like, ooh, story attached, story attached. Yo, there's a story. You went through it, but we was going through it. We just tested by these men and just grew grew so much.
SPEAKER_05Okay.
SPEAKER_00And still growing. Yeah. Because just because now that there's been a shift from unavailable to available, it doesn't mean that there's other trials and things and just baggage and stuff that we're gonna that we're not gonna hold. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we can't leave the 20s without acknowledging that when we talked about birth to 10 years, we said that there was a thread of who we are that made it to the to where we are now. In our teens, there was a thread of us that made it to where we are now. What was that thread in the 20s that have made it to your point in 30? Where you are in 30. And we have a lot to choose from because we also said we lived 10,000 lives.
SPEAKER_03So many, so much, so much. Oh I feel like I feel like the thread that has been pulling me that I am like truly committing my um 30s to, early next year, this year, it has been love. Like I feel like it has been, I feel like love gets such a bad rap. Like, you know, we see it as like corny and cheesy, but I I hate on her love. People be hating on her. And I the essence of love is such a powerful force and it pulls you towards like opening your heart, taking these risks. It's such a beautiful emotion. It's such a beautiful emotion. And so I feel like the the thing that I have been chasing and following has been like, do you feel more loved here? Do you feel love here, you know, and this work you're doing and these people you were with and the relationships you're having and the experiences, like, do you feel love being like present here? And I have just been following the places where I feel I feel I feel love.
SPEAKER_00I think mine kind of goes hand in hand with yours. Mine was honesty. Even though we lived multiple lives in our 20s, even though there was a space where, you know, I was quote unquote straight, there was a space where I was conservative. There was still honesty in me. I was able to look at some people and be like, that ain't really me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. I was able to be honest with myself. At least. Right. And over time, that honesty kind of went outward. And I was able to be honest with others. As I sit in my 20s, in my 30s now, I'm like, I just need to move in honesty.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Whether that leads to positive outcomes, negative ones, ones that feel good, ones that feel don't. At my core, I'm gonna feel full because I know I was honest with you. And I think that's loving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. That is such an accurate word. When I think about you, I do definitely think of being truthful. I feel like we have so many black table talks moments, you know, where we are asking the hard questions and you are not afraid to go there. And I think about the times when you have created black table talk moments for anybody else, where you're just like, no, we're about to have a conversation. Everybody's gossiping, kicking over here. Let's bring it to the table, let's talk openly. And you have, you have been very honest in how you show up and how you interact with other people, how you interrogate yourself and push yourself towards where you know you truthfully want to go and not hiding away from that. And you have walked away, I think, from a lot of relationships because of the dishonesty. You have given people chances to be honest, and they have not. They have not. And he was like, I can't be honest with you and you lie to me. So that is such a great word. That's such a great word. Help!
SPEAKER_00Yes. Help us, Holy Ghost. Yes, yes, wish them the best. Oh, we've gone from birth to 10, to the teens, to the 20s. Here we are. It's like our third days in the third, it's our third day in 30s. How would you describe 30s to this point? And what do you hope to tap into in this new decade? And I know we talked about confronting things that are like getting in the way of us living our best lives, but yeah, how would you describe this moment and what do you want to tap into?
SPEAKER_03So my word for this year, which has been coming up in my meditations for about three, four years, and I have avoided it like the plague, um, is the word surrender. And I recognize that I have spent so much of my life trying to control the process, trying to predict the outcome, the future. Um, and I am learning to trust myself, trust universe, trust ancestors, and really surrender to the process and um trust myself, lean back into the sense of like we are okay. I don't have to try as hard, I don't have to resist so much. I can flow. Right. And so really trying to get back into an energy of um letting creativity, letting love, letting just all these things like flow through me and from me instead of questioning, doubting, controlling, minimizing, dismissing, avoiding all of these things that I've done. And so it has been really hard because there are there's some energy. I I have a resistant energy. There is a fighter in me to where even if you tell me something that I want to do because you told me, I'm gonna say no, I'm gonna stay in my ground. And uh there are places I'm being called to, and I'm just like, why? You know, and I can't get the answer. So it's like really just trusting, um, just trusting and leaning into it. So yeah, so I I feel like for me, 30s is I don't know, this might be sacrilegious for people who are religious, but I feel like returning to my divinity and really embracing what it means to like fully be divine and fully human. And so it's it's a process of feeling power and not being afraid of it, feeling love and not being afraid of it, um feeling feeling my full selves and really not being afraid of the parts that uh show up. Some that I feel like I've judged and been really critical towards, and then other parts that I feel like I've been like, you want me to do what? I'm supposed to do this? No, that's too much for me. I don't I don't want all that attention, you know. I don't want to step into the leadership over there. I don't want to um move down this path that I feel um really inspired to move towards and learning to just say, okay, let's go. And then when things come up in their heart, learning to be really tender with myself through this very difficult process of me learning to surrender. That's 30s.
SPEAKER_00That's 30s. Where does that fear come from?
SPEAKER_03I mean, let's in so many ways, in so many ways, we have been taught to fear ourselves and to fear other people. I think I think so much of this oppressive racism, sexism, homophobia, all of this is rooted in this, like in keeping us in a space of fear, keeping us in the space of like, oh, well, we can't really say how we really feel because then we're gonna get X, Y, Z happen to us, or teaching us to seek validation outside of ourselves, right? So, like for me as a Black woman, trying to like seek validation from men or seek validation from white people, seek validation from this career, seek all of these things outside of me. And so this process of really of leaning into love and learning how to like seek things within back to myself has been challenging a lot of the ways that I've been taught to fear. Like I've been taught that you don't know what you know, you know, who are you to think that? Who are you to say that you have to like work twice as hard and play this game over here and try to secede over there? And I feel like for me, learning that like, oh, all of this is an illusion and I don't have to participate in it, and I could just step out of it and build my own life. Yeah, they don't want you to know that.
SPEAKER_00Because if you do all of that, and let's say you even get the crumbs that are put in front of you, you don't wind up feeling any more full. You don't wind up feeling fulfilled, you don't wind up feeling whole, you just feel tired. And that's where a lot of us are at.
SPEAKER_03And the thing, this is this is the this is the aha moment for me that really helped me to be like, oh, I don't want what y'all selling, is that white people are not free. They're not free, they're not free. Like, if your freedom is rooted in other people being oppressed, like, do you see how they swim the Capitol? They ain't free. I don't know what's going on over there, but that ain't it. But we run it to be over there. I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. I'm good, I'm good. So once I was like, oh, that this like go get all these degrees and go do all these jobs and and get this ladder, do this position, and keep your head down and do all these things that like are go like they've been told you equals success. And like you're saying, like you end up getting it and you still feel empty. I was like, oh, I'm not playing that game. But there's still ways that I'm attached, you know, there's still ways that I'm like, sure, I've been taught that these are measurements of success. So that a lot of the work is unlearning the ways that I've been taught, like to get the stamp of approval from these external sources.
SPEAKER_00I would say that you captured 30s fully. I'm in, I'm also in that unlearning space because I've gotten to this place of having achieved XYZ, having done all that work and still feeling a little off. And I would say I would describe that unlearning process as exciting, really filling when you really tap into it, but also quite overwhelming. Cause it's like, well, what if the other shoe drops? Right. What if like this doesn't work out? And you know, similar to how you described, was it the 20s or the the 20s, I believe it was. If this doesn't work out for me, then that's my fault.
SPEAKER_03But that's great. Because also the worst thing for me is to make all the decisions for somebody else and then to be unhappy. At least if I if I make the decisions and it don't work out, I can say, well, at least I I I bet on myself. Yeah. I made that. I fully made that. Not like I made that trying to seek my parents' approval or I made that because I thought it was gonna get me a man, or I did that, but you know what I mean? Like most people, not most, but a lot of people are making decisions for other people. Help. And that's I think a lot of the regret. Help.
SPEAKER_00You know, that's all the people need to know about you. Okay.
SPEAKER_03Yes. Yes. Wait, describe your 30s. What is it for you?
SPEAKER_00The same way. I'm trying to figure out this whole thing with I'm trying to lean into surrender more.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm trying to unlearn, like things have to go X, Y, Z, A, B, C. I'm trying to trust myself more. I'm trying to trust that things are gonna work out. I'm trying to trust that, you know, I have a divine power that I need to just rely on and tap into and just move, knowing that it's gonna be okay, and comfort myself in the moments where it feels like it's not gonna be okay. Cause those moments come.
SPEAKER_01Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00And the 30s are also, I would say, letting go of excuses, just to plug in a little something. I went on literally before this, I went on a walk with someone, and we were talking about just like this transition from 30 years of being a student to now being a worker, and how it's not just a movement of out of the schoolhouse and into the workhouse, but it's also a movement from you know, not being tied down and feeling like you couldn't do other things because you had less resources to now being like, I have all the resources, right? So in the past, there was this excuse of like, I can't do this because I didn't have the money. I can't do this because I didn't have the connection. I can't do this because I didn't have the time. Now you got the time, the connection, and the money. What's the excuse?
SPEAKER_03Baby. That's it. That's it. When I quit my job and I realized that uh and I had just been up this dream that's like, oh, I'm gonna quit this job and I'm gonna do my own business and I'm gonna end this. You know, I don't need them, and then they're getting in my way and they're blocking my creative energy. And then when I sat there for months and did not get stuff done, I was like, oh baby, it's you. It's you, it's you, oh my gosh, it's you, it's not them, you know.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, yeah, bad about not only is it just you, but it's you choosing fear over surrender.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What's the cheers?
SPEAKER_01Okay, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_00The scene, the theme of season two of Roseanne Thorns is called Exploring Sex and Pleasure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so we're gonna dive in. You, again, as I mentioned, are the co-creator of Afro Sexology. I just feel so honored and privileged to have you on this show. I remember when Afro Sexology was just a thought, right? You were like, yo, me and Raphaella are thinking of this thing, you know, the people need this. It's a meet in St. Louis. Folks need sexual education. That concept turned into a workshop. I remember when we went to Philadelphia and you all had your first twerkshop. And I was like, hey, you know, the conservative girl was still a little inside. I didn't do a full twerk. But you know, I moved my back a little bit. If I were to do it all again, it would be a different story. But that workshop turned into many workshops and twerk shops, which turned into features in spaces like The Root, Huffington Post, Five Magazine, Harper's Bazaar, Teen Vogue. And despite all of those achievements, Afro Sexology not has turned into, but has always been uh institution and organization that has just changed lives. Right? I don't tell you every single person who comes to me, but I personally know people who have been like, yo, I know that you're connected to these people. Should I buy their workbook? And I'm like, uh, yeah, girl. Right. Weeks later, months later, my life has changed. Weeks later, months later, I have a new understanding of pleasure. I have a new understand. My change understanding of pleasure has changed the ways that I interact with partners, with family members, with my job, right? And so I just wanted to highlight and give you, Raphaela and Afro Sexology, your flowers. Y'all are changing lives.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Let's start from the top. How did Afrosexology come to be? I know I gave a little piece of it, but in your words.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So Raphaela and I met in grad school, same place, but me and you.
SPEAKER_00Shout out to the doll.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, we met. Yes. I love her. All of us, you know, we was like black people, we were interested in sexuality, and we just kind of vibed on that level around those things. And so after grad school, in that sweet spot of being unemployed, you know, Rafaela was like, You want to do something? And I was like, What are you thinking? And she was like, you know, she really wanted to create space to like for people to talk more about sex. And so we, I think we did this in like two, two, three weeks. I mean, we were unemployed, we had nothing to do. So we were together like every day, all day, just like really dreaming. And the the thing for us was that we were constantly looking for a space to have these like sex positive, pleasure-centered conversations, but so many of them were white. We didn't want to do that. And um, we were also like looking for stuff and not finding it. So we were like, let's just create what we want. And the the thing that was guiding, I think, the creation was like, what is it I wish I had like 10 years ago? And what is it that I want to have 10 years from now? And so it was really creating a space where people could openly and honestly talk about sex and not the conversation that we get to have around sex in the black community, and this is really frustrating for me. And these are important conversations, but so many of the conversations are limited to STIs, unplanned pregnancy, assault, right? And I feel like the Black experience in this country, so much of it is has always been thinking and relating to our body as like a threat or a place of like to be afraid. Like the world is going to interact with your black body in this way, like always have it to be on guard. And so we really wanted to talk about the things that make us feel good. We want to talk about pleasure, we wanted to talk like openly about the things that we don't get to talk about. Masturbation is the topic that we talk about like the most, you know, and so we we really kind of crafted with that North Star around like how do we create space for black people to talk about what makes our bodies feel good and to celebrate it and to move towards that. I think the the theory underneath our work, um, twofold. One, that like talking about the red flags, which is what we do a lot in sex ed and have a lot of fear-based sex ed, talking about the red flags teaches people um that, right? But talking about the green flags helps people to move towards the things they want, which is different than just avoiding the things you don't want. And there was a lot of people who were in the middle of like, yeah, you know, he might do this, but he don't hit me because we spent all of our time talking about like this is what you should avoid, right? Not like, no, you want somebody who like, you know, kisses you, kisses your shoulder when you're like laying next to them. You know, you want you want this. How do you move towards that? Uh, and then the other, other like underlying from for me has been Audrey Lord's work, the uses of the erotic, and really this idea that like erotic power is power, and that once we tap into like our authentic, erotic, curious, creative, loving selves, that we don't settle for what the world has been reflecting to us, what it means to be black, you know? And so that is a little bit about what inspired us. And we the first year was really just like, do people want this? And then the people were like, hell yeah. So we were like, Oh, we gotta become a real business, like we really gotta get our stuff together. And we have grown into an amazing, amazing community of black people who are who are talking openly and freely about sex, and it is such an honor every time. I like it's just an honor to hold space for black people to talk about their bodies in this beautiful way.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for doing this work. It's needed. It's needed. Before actually jumping in, right, after you saw that, like, you know, yeah, people need this. What were some challenges or obstacles um you faced while just even thinking about afro sexology, maybe even like building afro sexology? And how'd you overcome them?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So I I will say, like in the beginning, there was like really few challenges and obstacles. It was, I mean, me and Rafaela were not, and that we were we weren't like looking for it to become like a million-dollar business. So we were just like holding the spaces and people were showing up, and that was our biggest thing, is just like, will people show up? You know, do black people want to talk about this? Will they be open, honest? Is this gonna feel safe, or is it gonna feel really vulnerable and messy? Um but after a couple of like workshops, we were like, this feels really good. People are really hungry for this, and so overcoming that was pretty smooth sailing. And as we've been doing our work, we have gotten so much love. I think we've only ever gotten like hate twice. One was from a guy, this black guy who was writing this blog about how we were turning all the black women lesbians. Okay. And then one was this you white lady made this YouTube video about how there's no difference between black sex and white sex. So why do we need Afro sex? I didn't even watch the whole thing. I was like, you have way too much time on your hands. Um, but every everything else has been like love. It's been so much love. I will say on a personal note, an obstacle I had was my family, because you know I told them, I told you they was really religious. Uh through dreams every Sunday, vacation by was cool. So that was that was a hard conversation. And there became a point when we started becoming more successful and getting these, like, you know, the teen boges and the and the vibe mag and all of these like features. And people were tagging me on social, and I was spending so much of my energy untagging myself because I didn't want my family to see it. And I was like, oh, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta do this, you know? And it was so cool to see like Rafaela's grandmother is our biggest supporter. Like she is, we said newsletter, she responded, like she just like loves everything we do. I love her. And I, you know, was like, here I am, like hiding this from my family. Um, so that was an obstacle, you know, and told my parents in a very formal distance way through an email because I was too afraid to tell them in person, which I Lord, um, says a lot about how formal my family is. And my dad was just like, whatever. And my mom was like, you're on a pathway to hell. And that was a hard conversation, that was hard. But over the years, my mom has like um has defended me to other family members. She has like uh told me that I, if I believe in what I'm doing, then that's all that matters, and I don't have to explain myself to anyone. My grandmother, because my grandmother's sister tried to call her and be like, Do you know what Dalicia is doing? And my grandmother was like, if she's happy, I'm happy.
SPEAKER_00And so, you know, like my next look at that product power.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, it's been, it's been that was the hardest thing was for me, was family. But it's been really cool to see them like support my dreams and my work, even if they don't fully accept, understand, or agree that they are in support of me. Um, and that has helped me to not feel like I have to hide this part of myself that is blossoming as a sexuality educator.
SPEAKER_00This takes me back to earlier in the conversation where you just in the 20s, again, you talked about, you know, how your community helped you feel full, right? Your community of friends. But it sounds like even your family is contributing to that fullness, right? And giving you space to just like show up and do what you need to do and moving your power.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yes. My cousins are huge supporters and you telling everybody. So yeah, my family has has really come up and supported me the best way that they I think that they are able to, which is really meaningful.
SPEAKER_00In addition to workshops and features and magazines, you and Rafaella through Afro Sexology created this video series called Intercourse. I stand, I stand where you interviewed folks on topics like self-love, um, their relationship with their and their understandings about private parts, um, their experiences with the talk, sexuality, orgasm, and pleasure. What was the intention behind that intercourse web series currently on YouTube?
SPEAKER_03Thank you for that shout out. Yeah, so I love the word intercourse. It was like a play on the word because when we think about sex, a lot of times. The formal word is like sexual intercourse, but in of course, also the definition also means a conversation. And so we really wanted to like have conversations with Black people on sex. You know, we were doing this work throughout for sexology, these workshops, and it was just such beautiful energy being shared. And I was like, I we want to share this with more people, but we don't want to like violate the space that we're in by bringing in cameras. And, you know, we wanted to keep it like you could honestly just talk and share and not feel like it's gonna be on the internet forever. And so we wanted to find people who were open to being on the internet forever, talking about their experiences. We switched the format, you know, like typically our workshops are grouped, but this one we did like individual interviews. And what's really interesting is that the themes that you see the videos in were pulled after we did the interviews. So there was so it was so amazing to see so many similarities come up in these like individual interviews that we were having with people too, where I was like, man, there's a lot of threads in our stories. Like the most common thing we hear in our work as sex educators, I'm sure you know, is like, I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one who had this experience, who had these desires, uh, who was dealing with the shame. And so all these ways that like the silence around sex has really kept us like siloed and separated from this. And so it was really cool to have these conversations and to see how open people can be, which I've been surprised by as a sex educator, how open people are. Once you start asking them about their sexual journey, people have so many stories, so many stories about how they've come to know their body, how they've come to know pleasure, how they've like explored relationships, all of these things that I've we've been taught we're like not supposed to talk about in this weird way. So it was a really positive experience to get to do that and to work with my partner on it because he does film. And so him and his um one of his crew members, Chris, helped us to put that together. So it was a cool experience on that for as well.
SPEAKER_00I really appreciated how you highlighted that, you know, when you give folks space to talk about sexuality, they're all in. I just did a presentation for some clinicians, um MDs and psychologists, and just, you know, process the fact that, you know, there's such a discomfort around bringing up sexuality in the healthcare space. But the studies show that even if you ask a question like, how satisfied are you with your sexuality? Can you tell me about the status of kind of like your sexual pleasure in this moment? Folks will take that and run and feel comfortable and want to, you know, learn more, tell more, dive in. When we think about the topics of your video series, you know, one would think, but we just dispel that, that people are having these conversations, right? But we know that they're not. What did hearing the different stories teach you about the current state of pleasure in our community, the black community?
SPEAKER_03I feel like this is this is the the thing that I have learned through being a sex educator and this video series just like um reaffirm that is that people know what they want. People are like clear when you ask them, like, what makes you feel good? Like, what's your your fantasies? People know the answers, but they have just been taught to like doubt it or fear it. And so I feel like so much of my work is not really um is not like giving people ideas or giving people insights on things. It's really just like sparking the flame that's already within them that they haven't been nurturing. And so there's what I appreciate is that there's such clarity on people, even when people are like, oh, I don't really know my turn-ons, I don't really know my turnoffs, and then we're like, okay, cool. Like you all get in a group and you discuss like what are some turnouts, and people are like listing things and they, you know, and so there's just this like a bit of apprehension that we that we have because we haven't been really given space to think of pleasure as good or or or as stuff that we deserve or that we can pursue. I do think so much of the black experience is feeling like the other shoe is gonna drop. And if something is too good, if something is good, it's too good, you know? And so there's these ways that it's like, oh, that that that felt too good. Like, what's the what's the catch? And so this relationship to pleasure there has been like apprehensive, like distrusting of like if I go and spend time with myself, then something bad's gonna happen. I'm gonna be like, oh, I shouldn't have been spending my time over here. But people, people are clear on what they know, on what they want, on what they desire. And that is step one. So that is beautiful to see in these conversations with people. It's just like encouraging them to like pursue what they already want.
SPEAKER_00And this takes me to the beginning, the statement you made. The things that help us survive are currently killing us. On the flip side, the things that will help us survive and thrive now, we often didn't have, maybe didn't have access to or didn't tap into. Right. So I think when we think about our community, pleasure is one of those things, right? Feeling quote unquote too good is one of those things. We a lot of us never got the chance to tap into that while we were out here surviving. And so now in the letting go of those tools that help us survive, here comes pleasure. We need to build a relationship with it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and reclaiming the narratives that like as black people, we we we got it. Like, you know, like we have joy, we have pleasure. Like I I um I love looking back at, you know, like in the ways that we have conversations about music, and we were having this conversation once where people were like, oh, you know, Nicki Minaj and Cardi B and Megan, they over here talking about sex, X, Y, Z. I'm just like, but we've been doing that. Like the blues women, the reason that we have sexual liberation is because of black blues women, because white women was trying to do that patriarchy stuff, and these black women were like, nah, I'ma have me a husband, a boyfriend, and a girlfriend. Like we shut up my Rainey, Bessie Smith, all of them, you know. And so there's there's ways that we have always had this. Harriet Tubman, people be telling Harriet's stuff, Harriet's story, and they'd be leaving out that she went back for her husband, try to set him free. He didn't want it. She was like, fine, got herself a lover by half her age, and was riding with that, you know. So like we leave out, we leave out these stories of like these people who are heroic and important, but also had like pleasure in their lives, you know. We don't want to talk about it because it's like it's not, I don't know, whatever, respectability politics, but it's it's been there in our community. And so we have always had access to it and we have tapped into it, and it's just a reminder that it is safe and it is okay and that we can continue doing that.
SPEAKER_00What has been your relationship with pleasure and how has Afro sexology impacted that relationship?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think similar to where many people were out with apprehension, like I was just not really, I wasn't taught that it was okay to, it was it was always seen as overindulgent, right? Like I had I had a father who worked really, really hard and did not take breaks. Like when everyone was like at his hospital, was like, oh, we're taking off for Christmas, we're taking off for Thanksgiving. He is working, working, working. So that was a narrative of like you you get to reward basically when you retire, you get to experience pleasure when you retire. Then I had a religious mother who was basically like, you get pleasure when you die, you won't heaven, you know? And so there was always this like delay to it, to this, like you have to like suffer and struggle and work so hard to earn pleasure, right? And so I now understand that pleasure is my birthright, that I don't have to do anything to earn it, that I could just experience it, that I can indulge in it, and that is okay. And so that has been a shift for me. And I think like many people who, you know, I think about college, like early college years, and being like, I can't, like I'm coming from a really restrictive family, and now I have this freedom and I binge all this alcohol and I do all the, you know, there's so there has been some periods of my pleasure that have been really like out here at breakfast, you know. But I have I have learned to not not self-regulate isn't the word, but I have like learned to be able to say, like to like listen to my body more and to know where my boundaries are with certain things. And I've also learned to like reassess what actually is pleasure for me, you know, like what feels good. There's things that, especially in this like period of growing, there's things where at one point this felt good, right? And I'm thinking particularly about drugs, and then there became a point where I was like, yeah, this is no longer social drinking. This is every day at the house, or you high all the time, or like uh I remember we recently went, I was like trying to celebrate myself because I had like a hard week and we went out for like a fondue thing, and it's not really a thing you can like take home, you know. So it's like you gotta eat it there. So we're eating, we eat it. It's four courses. I am so full, like I'm so full. But I'm like, I am going to eat this fondue. And so the the the fourth course comes, the dessert comes, and my partner's like, I am tapped down. I'm like, no, we go in, you know. So then I go home and I'm just like, does this feel like celebration? Like I feel so full, you know? And so just like learning more and more to be like, okay, I want to celebrate, but I want I I I am learning where my edges are around like my boundaries for my body. I just had to listen to my body more and to explore things. Like now, one of my pleasure is like taking days off and just like having more days of doing nothing. Um, and that feels really good.
SPEAKER_00The take-home that I'm getting from all that you're saying is that you know, we don't have to approach pleasure in like a black and white type of way. It can we can approach it really flexibly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. And so, yeah, maybe the things that you enjoyed in your 20s, you enjoy a little differently now, right? Not saying that you have to cast them all off, but you can approach them a little differently and you can incorporate new things, and you can set boundaries over here, and you can expand boundaries over there. Yeah, and we know that this will change when we go from 30s to 35 to 40s to 65.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and that's the beauty of it. It's like we are constantly evolving, and so there's always new things to learn and explore about yourself. I used to say, like, I hated um I hated sense, right? Because I was so used to like becoming aware of my nodes when I was smelling something bad. And as I've leaned into like my senses, I'm like, I love smells, you know, and I'm I've learned to like light incense and candles and like all these other things that I just feel like makes life so much more uh sensual and sensational. I just like enjoy it. So there's so many ways to keep learning about things about yourself and evolving and growing with it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing so much of yourself. We're gonna hit a couple more questions and transition to the end. You wrote a piece um a few years ago for Womanly Magazine on Orgasmic Living. And to this day, it rocks my mind. And I just want to read a quote from it. As you take stock of your life, the patterns become apparent. You make the choice to confront your people-pleasing tendencies, poor boundaries, and conflict-avoidant personality. You have challenging and overdue conversations with friends, lovers, and family members. Through trials and therapy, you develop tools to replace coping mechanisms that no longer serve you. You stop shaming yourself about the decisions you've made and the desires you have. You bask in the freedom of saying no and the joy of a deep, full-body orgasmic yes. Yes to prioritizing people, places, and practices that bring you pleasure. Yes to trusting, affirming, loving, protecting, and reparenting yourself. Yes to actively building a life and world that moves from feeling oppressive to orgasmic. Our definitions for different things can change over time. We know words mean things, but our personal definitions can change. How has your definition of orgasmic living changed over time? And how has orgasmic living transformed the ways that you navigate life?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So for me, you know how earlier I was talking about like where do I feel loved and where do I feel, you know, seen and safe and validated, like the orgasmic living kind of is the mode that I'm going, I'm trusting, right? And so when I think about the feelings that I get from an orgasm, or when I ask people, like, how does an orgasm make you feel? I get the most beautiful answers, people are like I feel free, I feel loved, I feel blissed, I feel inspired, I feel like, you know, wild, like all of these things. And so, like, those are the feelings that I am like moving towards in my life. Like when I'm like, we're the places, the friendships, like there's certain friends, you being one of them, when you get to hanging out with them, you're just like, oh my god, I feel so full, I feel so obscene, I feel so oh, that was so good. You know, like those are the kind of things. There's certain pieces where I'm writing, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, this idea feels so amazing. I think, you know, so it's like that orgasmic feeling is like what I've been letting to guide my life and make a lot of decisions for me. Like, what is the career path that gives you that most, that those feelings the most, right? So I've spent quite a few years pursuing those like orgasmic feelings and emotions, as I would call them. What orgasmic living has taught me and has brought me where I am now is learning that I gotta feel all my emotions because the way your emotions work, you can't just turn one up and then turn the other one down. I can't say, yes, more joy, no to grief, yes, more pleasure, no to anger. You know, so it's been created. It's like, oh, you're gonna feel them or you not, right? And recognizing that um I was navigating life pretty numb for a lot of a lot of times. I was this like super emotional person who wasn't taught that it was okay to be emotional, and I had learned to like numb as a way to survive. And so pleasure helped me to feel safe feeling again, right? Because I was like, I want to feel joy, I want to feel pleasure, I want to feel happy. And so pleasure that that uh pursuit helped me to feel like it is safe to come out from this like numbness, this numbed shell and to feel again. But it also has meant that I have learned to be re-confronted with like all the grief, you know, and like anger and all of these things. And I am now learning how to like better tend to those emotions and to hold space for them when they show up in me so that I am experiencing all of my emotions, all of them. Like, even like as I was doing like my New Year's reflections and what I want for 2022, I had uh one of the questions that um we decided to ask ourselves was like, how do you want to feel in 2022? And I was writing out all of these, like, I had my feelings real out. I was writing out all these positive emotions that I want to feel. And I was like, oh, so you try to feel happy all the time, girl. That's not life. There's a whole other range of emotions here for you to feel and to learn from, right? And so my commitment now is to just feel my feelings more, you know. And so orgastic living has brought me to that place. And I have been finding a lot of fun in feeling anger because I was, you know, people pleaser. So I was not used to expressing my anger, to allowing myself to get mad. I was always like intellectualizing my anger or just twisting it or minimizing it. And I would like think about it, think about it, think about it. Then I'll come back and I'll say, like, I feel angry about six YZ, you know, but it was a very like proper response. It wasn't like fuck you, and that bitch.
SPEAKER_00It was a controlled anger.
SPEAKER_03It was a controlled anger. And so I'm not, and I always thought that anger was gonna be wild and whatever, but I've like, as I learned to express it more, I'm like, oh, that feels good. I just wanted to be a witness, and it was also teaching me about my boundaries and like where I was hurt, and and so it's orgasmic living has has helped me to feel like all of my emotions can be orgasmic, you know, and that that is a really beautiful lesson that I don't think I would have I would have gone to on my own without that journey.
SPEAKER_00This takes me to like the work of Marcia Linnae, and who does DBT therapy and Brene Brown. You can't have one without the other. And when you convince yourself that you can just have joy without the grief, or just have happy without the angry, you actually limit the capacity to which you can experience the positive emotion.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Complete this sentence.
SPEAKER_03Pleasure is pleasure, is my North Star and a source of power.
SPEAKER_05Yes. That's that's right. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Oh, this has me feeling so good. This was a great conversation.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_00Now we are going to just do one more thing. We are going to spin the rose bottle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00We have spent this entire time with me asking you questions, getting into your business. Now you get to do the same. You get to ask me one question, and I have to answer.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Or I have to provide an answer.
SPEAKER_03I like how you set that up for yourself. No comment. Okay. Okay. All right. All right. So I want to know. I mean, I feel like you've asked me so many questions that I really touch on the professional and the personal. Like, how has my professional work transformed me? And so I'm curious for you how your work and sexuality, because you were also in the field with me, how your work of sexuality has transformed you on a personal level.
SPEAKER_00I would say the biggest thing that I've been sitting in right now that has really just rocked my world. I actually thought about it last night. A lot of the work that I do is focused on same gender loving black men. And a lot of the narratives that follow same-gender-loving black men are narratives of trauma. And we don't just see those narratives in statistics, right? Stats around HIV and STIs. We don't just see those narratives in like published articles, but we see them in media. I think of like, what's it called? What was the thing that Jesse Smole was on? The little music show. He got thrown in the trash can.
SPEAKER_05Oh.
SPEAKER_00You know what I'm talking about. Power. Empire. Empower. Something like that. Welcome to the Aunt Jesus podcast. Right. We see those things in media. We see it on Twitter, right? We don't, I don't often see a lot of same gender loving black men talking about like their pleasure. I see them talking about how niggas ain't shit. I see them talking about, you know, family members, how they ain't shit. I see them talking about struggles from day to day. And these are all realities, right? But I think where I'm landing in my work is holding space for kind of like the sad narratives, but also holding space for homopositivity. Because throughout, if we look close enough, throughout all of our lives, there's at least one moment where we or one person we've engaged with, one situation we were in where we were like, damn, my identity feels so affirmed. There was so much positivity linked to having this same gender-loving identity. And how that's transforming my own life is that it's making me kind of review from birth to now and find those like homopositive pieces and spaces. It's making me hopeful for homopositivity moving forward. And it's also, you know, holding me accountable to use my work to not only talk about the things that need to be changed, but to also talk about the things that need to be highlighted and emphasized to show other same gender loving black men that our lives are kind of dope if we look close enough.
SPEAKER_03Can you can you share a homopositivity moment for the people?
SPEAKER_00And more part of my life. Early, late. I don't know. I will share this. I'll share, yeah, I'll share about now, especially because the now is changing in the next couple months. Moving to Atlanta, I thought it was going to be this black gay mecca. I think I was so gung ho to move to Atlanta because I was like running away from a lot of stuff, right? What I did find was a group of amazing same gender loving black men who show up. Up in similar ways that I do, who are looking for deep friendship and relationship, friendship that is honest, that is loving. We've had hard conversations, we've had easy conversations, we've had explorative conversations. Um, and I think this was the first time that I've met same-gender loving black men who felt really aligned. Moving here. Yeah. There weren't any hangups around our presentation. There weren't any kind of like adherences to hegemonic masculinity. I know I'm using these words, but right, there weren't any like conservative things that were overwhelming. We were just, it's like I see you, you see me. Let's hold each other while we see each other. And that's just giving me a different aspect of what friendship could be like. And so, shout out to them. I'll call them by name. Shout out to Trey, shout out to Jerry, shout out to Sean and DeMarcus. I appreciate y'all.
SPEAKER_03Oh, that is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing. And just like, I love, I've never heard you say that. And I love that because I remember how intentional you have been about seeking male friendships and like even your whole journey about joining the fraternity was to like, you know, really deepen your relationship with men. Um, you know, there has been some trials to go. Oh yes. That journey. So to hear that you feel like you're you're you're leaving, not with what you thought you were coming to find, but with something that you really have been searching for, you know, feels really beautiful. So I'm happy you have that.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Thank you again.
SPEAKER_01Thank you.
SPEAKER_00I really oof season two has been really good, right? Some episodes before. Season two has just been a blessing, and I appreciate you for coming on and just making it even more of a blessing. Where can the people find you? Social medias, websites, anything you want to plug.
SPEAKER_03I am, you know, really fortunate, like my girl Beyonce, that I have a really unique name. So if you type in Delisha on the internet, you're gonna find all my business. So that's the best way to find me. And um, nothing to plug, just like encouraging the people. Like, I know we have a uh a year probably of another indoor season upon us, but encouraging people to continue finding pleasure and connecting with their body throughout this period. Um, because it's important, it's important, and it makes it a lot easier to be in the house.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and if you didn't last year, you know, virtual orgies, let's see if we can get it popping.
SPEAKER_03Uh, you know, Zoom be trying to block, but we got a lot of technology these days. Okay, FaceTime, we got it all. We got technologies on the side, metaverse coming to shit. Metaverse orgy, dressed like a dinosaur shit. No, Facebook a hater too. They be censoring. If you were a black person and you create apps, create an app for us to have orgies.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes, call it community. Oh, the community app.
SPEAKER_02Okay. I love it.
SPEAKER_00Y'all, this has been another episode of the Rose and Thorns podcast. See you next week. Bye. Thank you for listening to Roseanne Thorns, a P Ryan podcast. You can find Roseanne Thorns on Instagram and Twitter at Rose and T Pod. That's R-O-S-E-N-T-P-O-D. And you can find P Ryan on Instagram and Twitter at I M P Ryan. That's I A M P R Y A N.